Carcassonne Central

So, I got a response from HiG this morning to a bunch of questions I asked, and here they are:

Q1: What is the status of the mayor, the barn and the wagon? Are they followers or 'special figures' like the builder and the pig?
A: Ah… that old chestnut!
The mayor is a follower, subject to the usual rules of deployment and affects the majority.
The barn is a special figure, although it can also be counted as a follower.
As far as the wagon is concerned, I'm a little uncertain, but I'd nevertheless count it as a follower.
In principle all followers can be eaten or captured, while the special figures cannot.

Q2: According to the rules, "no other figure" may be in same feature as the wagon - does that include the fairy, the dragon and tower pieces (because they're all figures)?
A: We didn't pay enough attention here (damn!): instead of "figure" it should read "follower". As such the question shouldn't arise. The fairy normally stands next to a follower (except when the follower is taken prisoner) and so the feature would already be occupied. The dragon would eat the immediately and the tower is always on its own feature (the tower foundation).

Q3: Can the fairy be placed next to the barn and if so, does the player score a bonus point each turn and 3 extra points during scoring?
A: Following question 1: No, because the barn is not a follower.

Q4: Can the mayor and the wagon be eaten by the dragon, captured by the tower, or seduced by a princess?
A: Also following question 1: Yes (at which point the question of what the princess does with the wagon arises…)

Q5: Can the mayor and the wagon (or the barn) be placed in the appropriate quarter of Carcassonne City?
A: Mayor and wagon: Yes; barn: no.

Q6: Can the mayor, the wagon and the barn use a magic portal?
A: Mayor and wagon: Yes; barn: no.

Q7: Does a player still score double points for a besieged city if it lies on a farm with a barn?
A: Yes.

Q8: Does the pig-herd tile still score an extra point (barn = 4 points, barn+pig-herd = 5 points per city)?
A: The pig-herd tile only counts in connection with farmers, not the barn.

Q9: Can the mayor, the wagon, or the barn be placed on top of a tower?
A: No, the deployment of these figures is limited to the features described in the rules.

Q10: Can a knight in a besieged city escape via an abbey, or only via a cloister?
A: Yes: the abbey has all the characteristics of a cloister. In this respect more is on its way - in the next expansion (really just a collection of the mini-expansions) there will also be 'places of worship' which have a close connection to cloisters. We have to rule out various problems here…

Q11: In the case of the tile with the well and three 'roads': do all the 'roads' have to be completed before scoring?
A: Yes.

Q12: When an abbey tile is placed, can a follower be deployed next to the abbey (as a knight, for example), as it is possible to do with a cloister? Or does the whole tile count as the abbey and so only monks can be deployed to it?
A: No, the abbey covers the whole tile. The surroundings are not a city.

Q13: Can a follower be moved from Carcassonne City to a farm with a barn - and if so, how many points does a player earn (1 or 3)?
A: Yes, that is allowed: the farmer will then be scored immediately, and so scores only 1 point per city and is (importantly) not on the farm during the final scoring proper.


––––––––––
So, the sixth expansion is also confirmed, and it sounds to me like it should include The Cathars - cool!

That was everything I could think of - can anyone think of anything else?

EDIT: typos, typos, typos…

So I guess the answer of Question Q9 means that you can only place a big follower, ór a small follower on a tower?

(I think the Wagon surely would not fit on a Tower, but a mayor... maybe, I would have to try, I do not have this expansion yet)

Most questions are incorporated in the new rules. But this one I could not find in any footnote.

According to Q8, the pig-herd doesn't count for barns, that is clear.
But is a pig-herd counted when a barn is placed on it? (so normal count here)
and  is a pig-herd counted when a farm is merged with barn? (e.g. farm 1 pt, farm+pig 2pt, farm+pig-herd 2pt, farm + pig + pig-heard 3pt)

Anyone else think it's time for 4th Edition Rules?   {bor

With all the footnotes built in? Yeah.

But then if all the new rules were clear, what would we have to talk about?   ;)

Sounds like a good idea (4th Edition Rules)  :op

Hmm as per usual from the HiG some more clarifications that can cause further debate.

Q1, the anser states "Barn is special figure but CAN be a follwer"
Q3 the answer states "Following question 1: No, because the barn is not a follower"

Now I would see those two statemenst as a tad ambiguous ! ;D

Hi,

If the well card is used to connect three road segments and each road segment is owned by a different person (let say only one follower per road), how are the roads scored :

Do we consider that the placement of the well causes the creation of three seperate roads, one single roads, or somethings else....

Thank you,

james lapalme

In that case the well-tile will merge the roads into one, and that road is scored by majority, as usual. :)

There are some questions we have discovered (i.e. argued about!) when placing an Abbey tile to complete a city or road, if the Abbey tile contains no city or road "space" as noted above in this thread. I have noted in each case our current "house rule" but would appreciate feedback or more authoritative ruling.

1. Do I score point(s) for the Abbey tile when calculating the score of the road or city? Certainly in the case of the abbey being scored as a "super cloister" it counts as one of the tiles, but it is not clear how to score it for roads and cities.

(HR: No. The Abbey "terminates" but does not "complete" the city/road. The Abbot is very determined to use every inch of space for his monks and build his abbey walls right on the property line.)

2. If I complete a city/road with the abbey tile and there is a builder in the city, do I get a second tile as I would if I had completed it with a city/road tile?

(HR: No. The city is "terminated" at the Abbey, not "extended".)

3. If I place an Abbey tile in such a way that it Terminates one side/end of (but does not complete the rest of the city/road) and the city/road has my builder on it, then does that entitle me to a second tile?

(HR: No. As above because the city/road is not "extended".)

4. It seems clear that if I place an Abbey tile in the centre of eight other tiles so that it is immediately completed, and if I have followers in my hand, I can score nine points by placing one of those followers on it and immedialtely removing it (just like I could with a cloister).  But what if the placement of the Abbey completes a city or road (or both, or more than two . . .) on which there is no follower, and I have a follower in my hand? Do I then get to choose the most advantageous of the scores?

(HR: Yes. You can place one of your spare followers on the feature that gives you the best score - bearing in mind #1 above - and then remove it.)

And a note for Borderking: don't worry, once the rules become crystal clear there will be a new game expansion produced. . . .

D

I'd agree with those house rules, but we'll have to wait and see for official rulings…

Thanks for looking over those points Matt, but my local Carcassonne Lawyer has taken issue with house rule #4 and I think she is right. The rationale is:

When completing a city/road and scoring it "instantly" with a follower from your hand you are in theory placing a follower on "the tile you just placed" to complete the city/road and then removing it. Normally that tile will have a bit of city/road to accomodate this action.  BUT the Abbey tile has no city/road bits and therefore you can't place the follower from your hand on "the tile you just placed" (the Abbey tile) to earn the score. You can of course place a "monk" on that tile and so the score for abbey as cloister is OK.

So we are changing our rule (until there is an official ruling) and we will disallow scoring as described in #4 above.

However we do agree that when the Abbey tile completes cities that contain resources, the usual resource distribution to the tile placing player will be allowed.

It may be helpful eventually to get official rulings on these points if you think it worthwhile.

D

I agree with dwhitworth.

Hmm… she may be right, at that.

Still, definitely worth getting an official ruling.

Sorry I missed the submittal of questions for HiG.  I just played my first game with Abbey and Mayor and K,C&C and have one of question that I do not think I saw clarified anywhere.

If a feature is completed and scored that contains the wagon, the wagon can be moved to a connected incomplete feature but can a follower also be placed and the newly placed tile for instance playing a farmer in a field?

Well, the original rules were

1a. Draw a tile
1b. Place it
2a. Place a meeple
2b. Or... or... or... (depending on which expansions you are playing with)
3a. Score

Moving the wagon occcurs after 3a.  So let's say that I have a wagon on a road and I draw a tile that can complete it (1a).  I then complete the road with my wagon (1b).  Then I can place a meeple on the tile I just played (2a).  If I want to I can place a meeple as a farmer on the tile with the road that I just played.  Then I score the road I completed (3a).  After all that, I may move my wagon to an adjacent city (for example).

So to answer your question: Yes, you can still do 2a or 2b when you complete a feature with a wagon.

You can also complete a feature without a wagon (1b), then place the wagon from your hand (2b), score the feature (3a) and then move the wagon (3b) that you have just placed this turn.

I hope that answers your question.

 ;D Yes it did thank you.  Now for a follow-up. For the movement of the wagon, the rules say move to a neighboring which I interpret as immediately adjacent as in the surrounding nine tiles. However, the rules give a picture example of a wagon moving two tiles away and states its not possible because that road was a completed feature not because it was to far away. Furthermore I say a clarification that the wagon can only move to incomplete features if there is a connecting road.

So I assume the connecting road is correct but how far can the wagon move or is the example in the rules a poor example and confuses the issue?

Well, there's a bit of disagreement there.  There's a thread somewhere here questioning what's "adjacent" and whether they mean "connected to".

See posts 3 and 4 of this thread (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=222.0).

This question now has been officialy answerd by HiG.

However, i'm not sure about how far on the incomplete feature it is allowed to move though. If it can move to any tile of the unfinished, unoccupied but connected feature, this might cause difficulties (for other players) when using the Tower or P&D. It doesn't seem fair to allow the wagon to move to (for instance) the second tile on a road to avoid being captured by a tower, but maybe that's the 'power' of the wagon?

That's a good point… My guess is that the wagon can move to any point on the incomplete feature.

I agree with Matt. That's the power of the wagon. ;)

This actually might be good to get an official ruling on. I would have thought that it would be able to move to any tile of an incomplete, unoccupied and connected area. So on that I would agree with Matt and Scott, but perhaps HiG will give us an official answer.

So to summarise up the 3 posts above and to answer your question: The wagon can move more than a square away provided that the feature it is moving to is:
1. Incomplete
2. Unoccupied
and
3. Connected to where the wagon was

Of course, we'd like HiG to confirm.

Anyways:
If the wagon is on a completed city, then it can only move to any space along an unoccupied and uncompleted road that is connected to the city
If the wagon is on a completed cloister or cult place, then it can only move to any space along an unoccupied and uncompleted road that is connected to the cloister or cult place.
If the wagon is on a completed abbey, it can't move at all since nothing is connected to the abbey. **
If the wagon is on a completed road, then it can move to either
a) an uncompleted and unoccupied city connected to the road
b) an uncompleted and unoccupied cloister connected to the road
c) another uncompleted and unoccupied road connected to the road

Phew, the summary is longer than the answers :o

** A quick question: do we know if wagons can be placed in abbeys and cult places or to the city of carcassonne?

Maybe I am missing something but I do not understand:

"If the wagon is on a completed abbey, it can't move at all since nothing is connected to the abbey."

Why is this?  I would guess If a street leads right into a abbey i t would be connected, or am I missing some "ruling"?? :'(

Michiel

Erm... no, think about it this way: The abbey has a high wall around it such that the whole/entire tile consists of the abbey.  A road is completed by the abbey, but the abbey is not connected to, or part of, anything else, not to adjacent fields, not to adjacent castles and not to adjacent roads.  The field/road/castle ends at the abbey wall/border.

Well that is one way to look at it :)
I imagine a abbey is a very friendly hospitable place with no wall at all  ;D

 ??? Anyway. If the rules are not clear on this, I think, it would be nice to have an official ruling on this, in the next round of questions to HiG.

Michiel

Matt has already asked for a clarification:

This could well need clarifying from HiG.

At present, my understanding is this:

If the wagon occupies the Abbey tile, at the completion of the Abbey (ie: 8 tiles surround, the same way as a completed cloister), the wagon is free to move to an unoccupied, incomplete road that adjoins the Abbey tile. Although the Abbey tile brings to an abrupt halt and does not extend the road/city concerned, it does not prevent movement of the wagon to those unoccupied, incomplete features upon completion of the Abbey. In the same way the wagon would be able to move to an incomplete Abbey from a completed road/city that connects to it. :)

What you guys are talking about sounds to me like the inverse of Question 10, and the answer would be the same: connections are made via roads. Wagon cannot move to or from an abbey.

Now here's something that's interesting! Are you ready canada steve?

I think the rules are wrong here!  ;l7

How do you get into the Abbey if there are no connections? ;)

HiG have clarified this before. It arose first in the question of whether an abbey like a cloister could have a follower placed as a knight, farmer, or thief. The answer was (rather obviously) that the abbey tile contains no city, field or road segments on it. Therefore such a follower cannot be placed. The next set of questions were about the builder and whether an abbey completing a feature "extended" it and allowed an extra turn. The answer to this was the same - the abbey has no segments on it that will allow the extension to occur so there is  no extra turn.

Finally, and quite consistently, the situation with the wagon has been clarified using the same rationale. There are no segments of road on the abbey tile so it cannot be connected to a road and the wagon moves by road.

This leaves novelty's "brick wall" analogy as one way to visualize this. Sorry, but the rules do seem to say the abbot is rather unfriendly  ;D

If you persist in the need to develop analogies to explain this game you eventually go mad - explain how the monks in the abbey without a road  get their supplies . . .or any of a million other unreal situations. Better in the end to rely on the rules!!

They have tunnels to smuggle goods through the brick wall of course ;l7

I agree with everything dwhitworth said - in fact, he said it better than I did.

Oh well, I obviously will have to abide by the official rules on this then, although this situation has not yet arisen in any of our games. I'm not keen on unfriendly Abbots! If he wants converts he should be more friendly!

I missed question #10.  :-X.  I guess the abbeys are not connected to anything, and get their supplies by heli  ;D

M.

You guys are starting to see how good an idea that really was now huh?  ;D

I have 2 more "connection" question, in case of wagon movement. ???

1. In general a wagon cannot move from the city to the cloister, however there is a special tile with a cloister in the city, (in the fairy, dragon extension) can the wagon in this case move from the city to the cloister and vice versa?

2. There is a piece in the extension with the mayor etc. where a street goes ' in' the city disappears in a tunnel and comes out in a farm. Is this street connected to the city?

M.

Oooh, Difficult questions.  Nothing in the CAR about those 2.

1. Based on question 10 above I'll say No, as there's no road linking the city to the cloister!

2. I don't think the street is connected to the city at all.  Usually when a street is connected to a city, there's a gate of some sort.  This tile seems to show that the street passes over the walls and into the tunnel.

I would agree with Novelty on the second question, but there was a discussion of the issue of the cloister in a city somewhere else that went something like this.

If the wagon can move into a city after completing a road, and then later on move out of that same city once the city is completed onto another road (all of which is possible), then does this not imply that there are roads within the city (or at least something over which the wagon can move)? And if so then can we not assume that the cloister is similarly accessible by the wagon? Of course you could not go directly from a road to the cloister or vice-versa.

2. If connected means end in then no. By every other logical definition: yes.

1. Well ... One could surmise that there are - per dwhitworth's post - streets in the city on which to pull your wagon, so in a strict logical sense: yes. However, there are no roads on that tile, so probably no.

You can follow this topic here: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=261.0 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=261.0)

After Tobias and Joff's notes I started to think about this a bit more. I am reminded of the ruling on the Abbey tile where HiG point out that it is not accessible by the wagon as there are no road segments on the tile etc. etc.

Seems to me on reflection that they would probably take the same position on this cloister-in-city tile and say that in the absence of road segments the move cannot be made. That would leave the movement of a wagon across a city (as in my last post) as one of those mysteries that we have to live with in Carcassonne . . . unless Tobias wants to suggest that it's all done by a tunnel  ;D ;D

I also had thought about this and it does seem inconsistant to allow the wagon to move to the cloister within the city, but not to allow it to move to the Abbey tile.

Personally, as i've mentioned elsewhere, and although we do have the official ruling, I can't understand why the wagon cannot occupy the Abbey (and the cloister within the city).

Perhaps a clarification from HiG would settle the cloister within the city.

IMHO, because the cloister is IN the city, road segments are not needed. Seems to me the last time we discussed this, I mentioned that if the cloister was incomplete and you moved your wagon in, remember that you can't move it back out again because the city was completed previously.

The road that tunnels under the city is not connected to the city itself, so the wagon can't jump between the city and the road.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Real nice point here!!!

for that question i'd say YES(like dwhit), cuz if the wagon can travel all the city to hit the road to ANOTHER city/Cloister/Road connected, WHY the wagon CAN NOT ride himself THROUGH the town to cover the Cloister???

do we've got an official ruling??

I could drag my wagon around the city all day if I wanted to, I would still not get into the government building ;)

It is not the logistics that is a problem here; it is still the question if the cloister is considered to be connected to the city or not.

Remembering that this would also work the other way around; you could occupy the cloister within the city with the wagon in the first instance (by placing directly from your supply), complete the cloister within the city and then move to occupy the city if that is incomplete.

Hmm... Matt, would you be so kind as to start another round of "Questions for HiG" please?  We could really do with an official ruling on this.  Thanks!

but nothing holds me to get in!! connected/adjacent/included in, shall be(my view here) considered the same, so the wagon could be moved in. the point that is important is IF the roads/Cloiter/... "touch" the city, the wagon an be on his way. But this part deserve a F.A.Q.

ooooh wait a minute... by attentively look at the "famous" tile, i see something SHOCKING, we all know that the wagon CAN'T go on the 'grass'... look at the Cloister... she is ALL surround by ... "GRASS"  :o :o :o :o.

so, i change my idea... thw wagon CAN'T go on the Cloister, cus the Cloister is surround by ... GRASS  ;D

any comments??

I've been discussing this over att BoardGameGeek. Now that I found this site, I thought I might as well get a second opinion.

My argument is that the road and city are connected on this unique tile, even if the city doesn't end the road. I'll paste my argument from BBG (and note, that AFTER I wrote it I realised that connected segments don't seem to officially be defined as segments ending the one that the wagon is on, even if that's normally the case. This, I believe, makes my argument even stronger).

------------------
It's true that normally an "adjacent" segment is a segment that ends the one that the wagon stands on (if the wagon is on a road, then for example cities or roads on the other side of crossings ending the road are adjacent or "connected").

But I think the tile we're talking about is an exception.

My argument is this:

1) Realism. Why is the tile layouted the way it is, if it in fact works the same way as if the road ran in a tunnel all the way under tha city? I believe it's because it's unrealistic to have a road running in a tunnel under a city, never leading to the actual city itself.
AND if you bring that concept of realism to the equation, I think you also have to accept that it would be very unnatural to consider a wagon on a road inside the city unable to move a few meters/yards from the road onto the actual city ground!

2) Playability & Fun. I think it would be strange to have such an unusual tile, if the idea was that it in no way works in a special way. These kinds of special feautures always ad fun and interest to the game, I think.

IF you accept my interpretation of the rule, on question arises: if the road and the city are connected, does the wagon HAVE to stop in the city, or does this tile give the player an ADDITIONAL option how to move the wagon? I would say it adds one option, simply because it makes the game more interesting AND this way you also stick to the normal rule that all "endings of segments" are connected.

So if you, from left to right, have these tiles:

Tile 1) Crossing, with road segments (with the wagon standing on the road leading to tile 2)
Tile 2) The special tile, with the road leading into the city an through it.
Tile 3) road segment leading to a crossing

... then I would argue that IF you play tile 2, completing the road through the city, the wagon can be moved in 3 ways: to the other side of the crossing on tile 1, to the other side of the crossing on tile 3, OR into the city.

Comments, please? Am I totally wrong?

EDIT: Part of the "problem" here of course is; if the road runs on the city ground, how come the aren't connected, and IF they are considered connected, how come the city is not a road ending segment?
While I think the city should be viewed as connected to the road, but not ending it, I came to think about a rule that might add special interest to this tile:

What if the player who completes the road segment - by playing any tile that completes the road running through the city - can CHOOSE to make the special tile one of these two:
1) a road ending tile (thus dividing the road into two separate roads, AND making the city connected to both of the roads),
OR
2) a non road ending tile (and then the city is NOT connected to the road).

Imagine for example that player A has a thief on the east of the special tile, and player B has 2 thieves on the west side of it. Player A completes the road, and chooses to view the special tile as "road ending", and that way scores points for his part of the road (east of the city), even if player B has two thieves on the west side,

Or if player A has a thief on the west side, and player B has a wagon on the west side of the special tile, then player C, who completes the road, can for example sabotage player B:s plan to move the wagon to the city on the special tile by choosing to view the tile as "non road ending", forcing player B to either pick up his wagon or to move it somewhere else than into the city.

Question 173 of the CAR:

That doesn't really answer the question, but it's a start.  I think we should pose the question to HiG.  Tiberius for Joff.

Thanks. As you say, it's a start , and "roads which head directly ‘into’ a city" kinda signals that the road through the city is connected to the city. I agree that this question could be put forward to HiG. (I'm new on the site, so I have no idea if everyones free to add questions to the thread)

Everyone is free to add questions onto the list for HiG here: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=395.0 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=395.0)

However, that thread is supposed to function for questions that remain unanswered on the threads and not for our discussions/opinions relating to those questions. If you raise a question on another thread that might need HiG's clarification type the word 'Tiberius' at the bottom of the post. In this way when I/we do a search on the word 'Tiberius', I/we get all the relevant questions and can compile them together on the correct thread. Here is Novelty's example (from above) of doing just that:


Now when I/we search through, this question will be included in the 'Tiberius' search, and will be added to the list. On another note, perhaps we should have a new word for 2009? Any suggestions?

Edit: Spelling

Axelotl... that's not likely to come up too often...

The trigger word will change when the list of questions is finalized and sent to HiG. I was planning to use daffodil.

Ok, thanks! Now I understand - I must say I was wondering what the heck Novelty was on about with that "Tiberius for Joff".. :)