Abbey & Mayor - some rules clarifications

[Tobias]

I could drag my wagon around the city all day if I wanted to, I would still not get into the government building

It is not the logistics that is a problem here; it is still the question if the cloister is considered to be connected to the city or not.

[Joff]

IMHO, because the cloister is IN the city, road segments are not needed. Seems to me the last time we discussed this, I mentioned that if the cloister was incomplete and you moved your wagon in, remember that you can't move it back out again because the city was completed previously.

Remembering that this would also work the other way around; you could occupy the cloister within the city with the wagon in the first instance (by placing directly from your supply), complete the cloister within the city and then move to occupy the city if that is incomplete.

[Novelty]

Hmm... Matt, would you be so kind as to start another round of "Questions for HiG" please?  We could really do with an official ruling on this.  Thanks!

[Deatheux]

I could drag my wagon around the city all day if I wanted to, I would still not get into the government building

It is not the logistics that is a problem here; it is still the question if the cloister is considered to be connected to the city or not.

but nothing holds me to get in!! connected/adjacent/included in, shall be(my view here) considered the same, so the wagon could be moved in. the point that is important is IF the roads/Cloiter/... "touch" the city, the wagon an be on his way. But this part deserve a F.A.Q.

[Deatheux]

ooooh wait a minute... by attentively look at the "famous" tile, i see something SHOCKING, we all know that the wagon CAN'T go on the 'grass'... look at the Cloister... she is ALL surround by ... "GRASS"  .

so, i change my idea... thw wagon CAN'T go on the Cloister, cus the Cloister is surround by ... GRASS 

any comments??

[Bonden]

2. There is a piece in the extension with the mayor etc. where a street goes ' in' the city disappears in a tunnel and comes out in a farm. Is this street connected to the city?

I've been discussing this over att BoardGameGeek. Now that I found this site, I thought I might as well get a second opinion.

My argument is that the road and city are connected on this unique tile, even if the city doesn't end the road. I'll paste my argument from BBG (and note, that AFTER I wrote it I realised that connected segments don't seem to officially be defined as segments ending the one that the wagon is on, even if that's normally the case. This, I believe, makes my argument even stronger).

------------------
It's true that normally an "adjacent" segment is a segment that ends the one that the wagon stands on (if the wagon is on a road, then for example cities or roads on the other side of crossings ending the road are adjacent or "connected").

But I think the tile we're talking about is an exception.

My argument is this:

1) Realism. Why is the tile layouted the way it is, if it in fact works the same way as if the road ran in a tunnel all the way under tha city? I believe it's because it's unrealistic to have a road running in a tunnel under a city, never leading to the actual city itself.
AND if you bring that concept of realism to the equation, I think you also have to accept that it would be very unnatural to consider a wagon on a road inside the city unable to move a few meters/yards from the road onto the actual city ground!

2) Playability & Fun. I think it would be strange to have such an unusual tile, if the idea was that it in no way works in a special way. These kinds of special feautures always ad fun and interest to the game, I think.

IF you accept my interpretation of the rule, on question arises: if the road and the city are connected, does the wagon HAVE to stop in the city, or does this tile give the player an ADDITIONAL option how to move the wagon? I would say it adds one option, simply because it makes the game more interesting AND this way you also stick to the normal rule that all "endings of segments" are connected.

So if you, from left to right, have these tiles:

Tile 1) Crossing, with road segments (with the wagon standing on the road leading to tile 2)
Tile 2) The special tile, with the road leading into the city an through it.
Tile 3) road segment leading to a crossing

... then I would argue that IF you play tile 2, completing the road through the city, the wagon can be moved in 3 ways: to the other side of the crossing on tile 1, to the other side of the crossing on tile 3, OR into the city.

Comments, please? Am I totally wrong?

EDIT: Part of the "problem" here of course is; if the road runs on the city ground, how come the aren't connected, and IF they are considered connected, how come the city is not a road ending segment?
While I think the city should be viewed as connected to the road, but not ending it, I came to think about a rule that might add special interest to this tile:

What if the player who completes the road segment - by playing any tile that completes the road running through the city - can CHOOSE to make the special tile one of these two:
1) a road ending tile (thus dividing the road into two separate roads, AND making the city connected to both of the roads),
OR
2) a non road ending tile (and then the city is NOT connected to the road).

Imagine for example that player A has a thief on the east of the special tile, and player B has 2 thieves on the west side of it. Player A completes the road, and chooses to view the special tile as "road ending", and that way scores points for his part of the road (east of the city), even if player B has two thieves on the west side,

Or if player A has a thief on the west side, and player B has a wagon on the west side of the special tile, then player C, who completes the road, can for example sabotage player B:s plan to move the wagon to the city on the special tile by choosing to view the tile as "non road ending", forcing player B to either pick up his wagon or to move it somewhere else than into the city.

[Novelty]

Question 173 of the CAR:

Question: What is the definition of [connected/adjacent/neighbouring] for the Wagon? If two city walls are
touching (maybe even only at a point), can I drive my Wagon from one to another? Answer: ‘Connected’ means
roads which lead to crossings and roads which head directly ‘into’ a city or a cloister. Two cities never connect to
each other (in the current land tiles). So the wagon has to use the roads to move—it’s a wagon, after all.

That doesn't really answer the question, but it's a start.  I think we should pose the question to HiG.  Tiberius for Joff.

[Bonden]

Question 173 of the CAR:

Question: What is the definition of [connected/adjacent/neighbouring] for the Wagon? If two city walls are
touching (maybe even only at a point), can I drive my Wagon from one to another? Answer: ‘Connected’ means
roads which lead to crossings and or a cloister. Two cities never connect to
each other (in the current land tiles). So the wagon has to use the roads to move—it’s a wagon, after all.

That doesn't really answer the question, but it's a start.  I think we should pose the question to HiG.  Tiberius for Joff.

Thanks. As you say, it's a start , and "roads which head directly ‘into’ a city" kinda signals that the road through the city is connected to the city. I agree that this question could be put forward to HiG. (I'm new on the site, so I have no idea if everyones free to add questions to the thread)

[Joff]

Everyone is free to add questions onto the list for HiG here: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=395.0

However, that thread is supposed to function for questions that remain unanswered on the threads and not for our discussions/opinions relating to those questions. If you raise a question on another thread that might need HiG's clarification type the word 'Tiberius' at the bottom of the post. In this way when I/we do a search on the word 'Tiberius', I/we get all the relevant questions and can compile them together on the correct thread. Here is Novelty's example (from above) of doing just that:

Question 173 of the CAR:

Question: What is the definition of [connected/adjacent/neighbouring] for the Wagon? If two city walls are
touching (maybe even only at a point), can I drive my Wagon from one to another? Answer: ‘Connected’ means
roads which lead to crossings and roads which head directly ‘into’ a city or a cloister. Two cities never connect to
each other (in the current land tiles). So the wagon has to use the roads to move—it’s a wagon, after all.

That doesn't really answer the question, but it's a start.  I think we should pose the question to HiG.  Tiberius for Joff.

Now when I/we search through, this question will be included in the 'Tiberius' search, and will be added to the list. On another note, perhaps we should have a new word for 2009? Any suggestions?

Edit: Spelling

[meepleater]

Now when I/we search through, this question will be included in the 'Tiberius' search, and will be added to the list. On another note, perhaps we should have a new word for 2009? Any suggestions?

Axelotl... that's not likely to come up too often...

[Scott]

The trigger word will change when the list of questions is finalized and sent to HiG. I was planning to use daffodil.

[Bonden]

Now when I/we search through, this question will be included in the 'Tiberius' search, and will be added to the list. On another note, perhaps we should have a new word for 2009? Any suggestions?

Ok, thanks! Now I understand - I must say I was wondering what the heck Novelty was on about with that "Tiberius for Joff"..