Abbey & Mayor - some rules clarifications

[Joff]

Can the wagon move to an incomplete, empty, Abbey when the road/city it is on is completed? That is: is the road/city "adjacent" to the Abbey even though the Abbey tile has no city/road segment?

Answer: No. Just like in the first question, connections are made via roads.

Now here's something that's interesting! Are you ready canada steve?

I think the rules are wrong here! 

How do you get into the Abbey if there are no connections?

[dwhitworth]

HiG have clarified this before. It arose first in the question of whether an abbey like a cloister could have a follower placed as a knight, farmer, or thief. The answer was (rather obviously) that the abbey tile contains no city, field or road segments on it. Therefore such a follower cannot be placed. The next set of questions were about the builder and whether an abbey completing a feature "extended" it and allowed an extra turn. The answer to this was the same - the abbey has no segments on it that will allow the extension to occur so there is  no extra turn.

Finally, and quite consistently, the situation with the wagon has been clarified using the same rationale. There are no segments of road on the abbey tile so it cannot be connected to a road and the wagon moves by road.

This leaves novelty's "brick wall" analogy as one way to visualize this. Sorry, but the rules do seem to say the abbot is rather unfriendly 

If you persist in the need to develop analogies to explain this game you eventually go mad - explain how the monks in the abbey without a road  get their supplies . . .or any of a million other unreal situations. Better in the end to rely on the rules!!

[Novelty]

They have tunnels to smuggle goods through the brick wall of course

I agree with everything dwhitworth said - in fact, he said it better than I did.

[Joff]

Oh well, I obviously will have to abide by the official rules on this then, although this situation has not yet arisen in any of our games. I'm not keen on unfriendly Abbots! If he wants converts he should be more friendly!

[mdjvz]

I missed question #10.  .  I guess the abbeys are not connected to anything, and get their supplies by heli  

M.

[Tobias]

They have tunnels to smuggle goods through the brick wall of course

I agree with everything dwhitworth said - in fact, he said it better than I did.

You guys are starting to see how good an idea that really was now huh? 

[mdjvz]

I have 2 more "connection" question, in case of wagon movement.

1. In general a wagon cannot move from the city to the cloister, however there is a special tile with a cloister in the city, (in the fairy, dragon extension) can the wagon in this case move from the city to the cloister and vice versa?

2. There is a piece in the extension with the mayor etc. where a street goes ' in' the city disappears in a tunnel and comes out in a farm. Is this street connected to the city?

M.

[Novelty]

Oooh, Difficult questions.  Nothing in the CAR about those 2.

1. Based on question 10 above I'll say No, as there's no road linking the city to the cloister!

2. I don't think the street is connected to the city at all.  Usually when a street is connected to a city, there's a gate of some sort.  This tile seems to show that the street passes over the walls and into the tunnel.

[dwhitworth]

I would agree with Novelty on the second question, but there was a discussion of the issue of the cloister in a city somewhere else that went something like this.

If the wagon can move into a city after completing a road, and then later on move out of that same city once the city is completed onto another road (all of which is possible), then does this not imply that there are roads within the city (or at least something over which the wagon can move)? And if so then can we not assume that the cloister is similarly accessible by the wagon? Of course you could not go directly from a road to the cloister or vice-versa.

[Tobias]

2. If connected means end in then no. By every other logical definition: yes.

1. Well ... One could surmise that there are - per dwhitworth's post - streets in the city on which to pull your wagon, so in a strict logical sense: yes. However, there are no roads on that tile, so probably no.

[Joff]

I would agree with Novelty on the second question, but there was a discussion of the issue of the cloister in a city somewhere else that went something like this.

You can follow this topic here: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=261.0

[dwhitworth]

After Tobias and Joff's notes I started to think about this a bit more. I am reminded of the ruling on the Abbey tile where HiG point out that it is not accessible by the wagon as there are no road segments on the tile etc. etc.

Seems to me on reflection that they would probably take the same position on this cloister-in-city tile and say that in the absence of road segments the move cannot be made. That would leave the movement of a wagon across a city (as in my last post) as one of those mysteries that we have to live with in Carcassonne . . . unless Tobias wants to suggest that it's all done by a tunnel 

[Joff]

I also had thought about this and it does seem inconsistant to allow the wagon to move to the cloister within the city, but not to allow it to move to the Abbey tile.

Personally, as i've mentioned elsewhere, and although we do have the official ruling, I can't understand why the wagon cannot occupy the Abbey (and the cloister within the city).

Perhaps a clarification from HiG would settle the cloister within the city.

[Scott]

IMHO, because the cloister is IN the city, road segments are not needed. Seems to me the last time we discussed this, I mentioned that if the cloister was incomplete and you moved your wagon in, remember that you can't move it back out again because the city was completed previously.

The road that tunnels under the city is not connected to the city itself, so the wagon can't jump between the city and the road.

[Deatheux]

1. In general a wagon cannot move from the city to the cloister, however there is a special tile with a cloister in the city, (in the fairy, dragon extension) can the wagon in this case move from the city to the cloister and vice versa?

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I would agree with Novelty on the second question, but there was a discussion of the issue of the cloister in a city somewhere else that went something like this.

If the wagon can move into a city after completing a road, and then later on move out of that same city once the city is completed onto another road (all of which is possible), then does this not imply that there are roads within the city (or at least something over which the wagon can move)? And if so then can we not assume that the cloister is similarly accessible by the wagon? Of course you could not go directly from a road to the cloister or vice-versa.

Real nice point here!!!

for that question i'd say YES(like dwhit), cuz if the wagon can travel all the city to hit the road to ANOTHER city/Cloister/Road connected, WHY the wagon CAN NOT ride himself THROUGH the town to cover the Cloister???

do we've got an official ruling??