Carcassonne Central expansion: reboot!

[CKorfmann]

I'd be behind publishing the CAR.  You've certainly done enough work to make it a worth while publication.  The only problem I see is that it is a living document.  With the next new expansion, it becomes obsolete (for lack of a nicer sounding word).

[mjharper]

I'd be behind publishing the CAR.  You've certainly done enough work to make it a worth while publication.  The only problem I see is that it is a living document.  With the next new expansion, it becomes obsolete (for lack of a nicer sounding word).

Exactly my problem with the idea. And there might be issues with subsequent corrections / additions too.

I was just brainstorming, really.

[CKorfmann]

Hey, no foul!  Brainstorming is what we have to do, right.    I'm not convinced it's a bad idea, it just presents some problems.  One good problem, for you, is that it would need to be updated periodically and it would give you something to keep doing for them.  Then we'd have to re-evaluate that superhero status! 

[Joff]

Publishing a set of tiles with the CAR does solve another problem... we would not need to worry about how long the rules for the new tiles were, they could be included in the CAR. In this way several small expansions could be released.

[Whaleyland]

Publishing a set of tiles with the CAR does solve another problem... we would not need to worry about how long the rules for the new tiles were, they could be included in the CAR. In this way several small expansions could be released.

Not to kill optimism here, but this discussion I feel is getting off track. While publishing the CAR would be absolutely awesome, I seriously doubt that RGG would consider it at this time. Concerning releasing several small expansions, I am just not feeling that will have the right WOW power. Instead, I think it will make the expansion seem confusing and disparate. That is not what we should be doing since we are trying to establish ourselves as a legitimate base for HiG and RGG to consult for future expansion ideas.

The major problem I see here is that everyone is voting for themselves. Anyone see Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End? We have become the Pirates' Council. We all have votes and we all are voting for ourselves...or at least promoting our ideas. Everyone here needs to consider other peoples' ideas too. It's fine to promote their own, but it is better to note the merits of others'.

I will post a poll in the next week, following Jay's reply to my email, with all of the major options for this expansion. But I am suggesting that each author only propose one (and only one) of their expansions for consideration. If the expansion is less than 12 tiles, we can include vanilla tiles to bring it up to 12. In addition, I am going to try and allow two votes for each person on CarcCentral, therefore everyone will have to vote for someone else's expansion as well as their own. Hopefully, we can reach a consensus this way, since discussing it between authors doesn't appear to be working. Post your well-thought proposals here, and I will compile them together in a poll later this week. When Jay replies, I will give a few days' time in case anyone wants to change their proposal. Then we will begin the weeding-out process. Sorry to be so harsh on everyone, but this should be a democratic decision and I feel like I am working with the estates general of the United Provinces of the Netherlands.

[mathguy89]

Would something along the lines of the section where we have new tiles, but no new rules, be a route we want to go down?  I know it's a lot of my stuff there, but I've really enjoyed the Thanksgiving and Winter 2008 expansions from Novelty, as well as my own.  I think the work on the mathguy gamma set is the best, but that's my opinion, though the CCCC tile from mathguy2008 is a really cool one. 

[Tobias]

If you are truly serious about this, then yes, you should propose tiles without new rules. Much like GQ#11, or King and scout (yeah yeah, "longest road" can bite my arse).

[Skull One]

I am going to be the "kill joy" and "fun sucker" of the conversation. I will give the short version on the why you will never get RGG or HiG to publish anything from this site based on the current conversation.

First rule of a corporation that produces a hard good:  If they receive any type of correspondence with an idea, suggestion and/or improvement, they will immediately stop reading.  At this point if they have a good PR section in the company they will send you a form letter stating that they didn't finish reading your correspondence and that they do not accept outside of the company unsolicited help.  If they don't respond at all it is because someone wasn't smart enough to setup a good PR response.

Now if the company is small and they do read the idea 100%, because they don't have a R&D department, they will clean room the idea and make sure they change just enough to avoid a possible lawsuit.  And they only attempt that when there is a large amount of money to be made.


Now I try to make sure anytime I am a total "kill joy" on an idea that I at lest give a suggestion around the issue.  Mine is very simple. 

You need to convince either RGG or HiG to run a contest for a fan submitted expansion.  This will allow their lawyers to draft rules in such a way that you will get credit for the submission, a copy or two of the final product but no other considerations, especially monetary and owner rights. That also means they will change artwork, wording, rules and final design as they see fit to meet their business model.  So don't expect your submission to be done exactly as you want.


So if you really want one of these tiles sets published and legal, get HiG to run a contest.  I am going to guess RGG based on my review of their current business model, isn't going to be as open to the idea.

[CKorfmann]

Publishing a set of tiles with the CAR does solve another problem... we would not need to worry about how long the rules for the new tiles were, they could be included in the CAR. In this way several small expansions could be released.

You have some very valid points, but in light of some of the critisisms, I think we'll only know which direction to go when we start getting feedback from Jay.

The major problem I see here is that everyone is voting for themselves. Anyone see Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End? We have become the Pirates' Council. We all have votes and we all are voting for ourselves...or at least promoting our ideas. Everyone here needs to consider other peoples' ideas too. It's fine to promote their own, but it is better to note the merits of others'.

Not everyone is voting for themselves.  I've suggested at least a dozen works of other people.  I'm not sure you can rush to make that judgement based on Joff's last post.  He doesn't outright suggest his work, and I'm not sure we should assume he is doing so.  His work is some of, if not the the best we have to offer anyway, IMO.  I do agree that the authors should vote though, and that's why I suggested that Gantry and Matthew, as admins, choose the voting list.

If you are truly serious about this, then yes, you should propose tiles without new rules. Much like GQ#11, or King and scout (yeah yeah, "longest road" can bite my arse).

That would be playing it safe, but I still say, be careful we don't limit ourselves.  I don't think it would hurt to offer two different proposals even if they are only for Jay to choose which one he's willing to submit.

I am going to be the "kill joy" and "fun sucker"...

I would be tempted to agree with you on almost every point if it were not for the GQ11.  That might sound contradictory considering my previous statement, but the precedent has been set.

[Whaleyland]

Okay, first thing this morning I received my reply from Jay. He pretty much is his own PR department and has already stated that we can propose to him directly and he will negotiate for us. He doesn't intend to stop reading and creating something different. We've already been through this with Jay and basically he will publish what we give him if he and HiG approve of it. That being said, here is the gist of what he replied to me:

Thanks for your note - send my best wishes to Gantry Rogue.

As for the following, whatever is proposed must be approved by Hans in Glück in Germany.

1) How many new tiles should we include in our expansion? In other words, should we propose one 12-tile sheet, or something smaller or larger? What are the reasonable new tile limits that you and Hans im Glück would accept?

Well, 12 is the small box - for the medium box, it could be 24-30, I think

2) What type of expansion is Rio Grande Games willing to publish? As we are planning to draw ideas from the various fan expansions we have created over the past four years, we want to know how advanced such an expansion can be. The Games Quarterly #11 expansion simply added 12 new tiles into the game without any rules. While we'd like to include some new tiles that don't require rules, we'd also like to know if we can include some tiles with new mechanics; something on par with the Cathars expansion by Spielbox.

We will look at either.

3) If we are allowed to introduce new mechanics into the game, should we stick with one new mechanic or could we introduce two or more? In this respect, the recent publication of Cult, Siege & Creativity comes to mind. We wouldn't mind publishing an expansion that introduced 4 tiles of one mechanic, 4 tiles of another mechanic, and 4 tiles that don't require any new rules.

I think 2 or 3 is OK, if they are somehow connected.

4) Is there any specific mechanic that Rio Grande Games personally would like or prefer us to publish? Conversely, is there something we should not attempt to include in our proposed expansion? More importantly, perhaps, is there any specific idea or mechanic that would improve our chances of acceptance by Hans im Glück or publication by Rio Grande Games?

Using anything related to warfare of fighting will likely be rejected.

Okay, so there you have it. The summary:
1) Jay would consider a small (12-tile) or large (24- or 30-tile) expansion, but it has to be approved by Hans im Glück
2) New mechanics are fine, but limit them to 2 or 3 new mechanics, nothing more, but keep them in the same rough theme.
3) Mechanics relating to warfare probably would be rejected by HiG.

With these conditions, Jay leaves us pretty open to user contributions. I still think that authors and other people should propose what they feel are the best expansions and then I will make a poll with two votes each to try and determine the winner(s) that we can then use to create this expansion. Jay sounds open to the idea so let's impress him with something great. No catapult mechanics need apply!

[Skull One]

I am amazed that RGG is even willing to consider this.  I wonder how he plans to deal with the legal ownership issues?  Esp since the information was distributed on the internet with little to no legal copyrights being applied for or granted.  Which means there is now a "Public Domain" situation.  I can't wait to see how this turns out.

[CKorfmann]

Jay's reply is exciting!  It's good to know that I wasn't out in left field with my thinking.  I have to say that given the information we've received from Jay, I feel JPutt's Seasons should be strongly considered.  The expansion has received nothing but praise from members, it fits Jays description, it's a brand new mechanic, and the concept of seasons is familar to gamers with versions available for Catan and Agricola.  Not that there aren't equally appropriate options, I just feel it's one of our best.  Any thoughts?

As for Joff's Medieval expansion, it seems like it might be just slightly more complex in the number of rule sets than Jay has suggested (2-3 new concepts, where Medieval has four).  But, it could be a possible future proposal.

Whaley, hopefully this isn't putting the cart before the horse, but in light of the many fine expansions/authors we have here, would Jay be willing to consider a subsequent offering if the first one goes well?  Could you, perhaps, put that on your next list of questions.

[Whaleyland]

Lol. I already have a number of legal, semi-legal questions that we have all raised concerning so I will add it to the list. I will probably have to read and read-read this forum dozens of times before we finish everything and (hopefully) get our expansion published.

That all being said, I counter-propose that while each author can only propose one of their expansions for consideration, other authors can propose their expansions. That way, we get more democracy still!

List of proposed expansions for the poll:
1. Carcassonne - Seasons

[CKorfmann]

I think it's worth noting that since Jay seems open to the posibility of a "large" set of 24-30 tiles, then it would seem likely that it could include meeples.  If we follow the form of A&M, the three new meeples they introduced had nothing to do with the tiles that came in the set.  That said, we also have several excellent meeple-only expansions worthy of consideration.  Some of those are mine, but that doesn't mean I'm particularly suggesting those. 

[Skull One]

Even though I have my doubts of this getting off the ground, I did spend some time re-reviewing the expansions currently listed here.

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that the Mountains be presented as the first full non-HiG expansion for production.  The concept and playability are straight forward.  The scoring does help drive the players to keeping the mountains near each other.  But the rules should be clarified and/or changed to allow the player to use a mountain to complete an existing feature like the abbey tile does. This adds a tactical element to the game which can also help newer players, that are not fully versed in the tile distribution, to get out of certain traps.  The tile distribution should be group reviewed one last time to make sure it is consistent with other large expansions already in release.  This set might also help convince RGG/HiG a much larger release such as the Forests could be worthwhile.

At present there are very few expansions listed here I would actually pay for.  The criteria for my selection was "What would I be willing to buy two copies of for both home and work"?  Only the Mountains and Forests really stuck out.  And I would be willing to pay between $25 and $35 for each set.