Carcassonne Central expansion: reboot!

[Novelty]

I agree with going through Jay.  He would probably be the best person to go along with.

Question #6 is a bit vague from my point of view as well.  I think you phrased it better in your post above as a statement (instead of a question) and I think from Jay's comment he expects to foot the bill himself (at least initially) while we handle the retail sales portion.  I think you'll need to really clarify it with him.

I don't have the capacity or experience to run an online retail sales thing, but one thing we might want to have is pre-orders.  That would give us an indication how popular the expansion is going to be.

[Scott]

I understand "distributed by RGG" to mean that it would filter down through the usual channels to the various game stores. CarcCentral would be just one of many retailers.

[Whaleyland]

Wow, somehow this excellent suggestion became orphaned nearly eight months ago! What a loss. We made such progress and then Christmas came along and everyone forgot about it. What a shame. Perhaps the sparse presence of Gantry has aided in this failed endeavour. Well, perhaps it should be restarted.

I understand "distributed by RGG" to mean that it would filter down through the usual channels to the various game stores. CarcCentral would be just one of many retailers.

Yes, CarcCentral would be one of the many retailers, but we would be the only one that holds credit for the expansion. Novelty contacted me today to suggest revitalizing this lost thread, and while I may not be the perfect person for the job, I think that together we can get something worked out.

1. Distribution
First off, I think a great way to create our own CarcCentral store would to appoint someone very trustworthy to become the site store manager and treasurer. This should probably be a moderator, site owner, or someone else well-established. I propose that our method of distribution (from this specific site) be via PM-based PayPal exchanges, much in the manner that Hanno and Z-Man do it on BoardGameGeek. They have been distributing Agricola expansions for months via simple PayPal payments and PM's confirming your order. Really, it is a simple, easy, and hard to miss means of selling. Alternatively, CarcCentral could set up an eBay account exclusively for the sale of CarcCentral merchandise. Both of these are just suggestions, but distribution was one problem we had.

2. Expansion Details
I've been working hard the past three months designing a card game which I plan to play test and propose before the end of the year. This has taught me that companies prefer to have a game sample already made before they consider it seriously. We need an expansion, or compilation, that has 12 tiles and represents the best CarcCentral has to offer because, remember, this will be an advertisement for our website as much as an expansion to Carcassonne. While our primary goal is to add to the greatness of the game, we can't forget that it will also reflect our own site and become part of the Carcassonne Canon (and be included in Matt Harper's CAR!). I'd suggest a group of a few authors, specifically, to search and reflect on expansions form the past few years and choose the absolute best we have. Nothing too complicated, nothing to advanced, and make sure there are a few tiles that require no additional rules. I'd suggest, from his many contributions to the site, that Novelty take the lead on this wing of the project.

3. Contact and Negotiation
We've noticed and all realized that Jay has a lot on his plate and can't always do everything for us. However, I also believe that he is the best contact we as a group have to Hans im Glück. Rio Grande Games requires permission from HiG to publish any expansion, even if they are not published in Germany. However, due to complaints and confusion over the Cathars in 2006, all expansions, from Hans im Glück or Rio Grande Games, may be published by the other company. That does not mean that any expansion we produce will be released in Germany or Europe, but it hypothetically can be. Thus said, it makes since that we have to talk to HiG and I think Jay, also realizing that his company isn't as fast at adapting games as some of his competitors, would willingly act as our go-between if we proposed a good enough expansion. If our competition is Wheel of Fate and Catapult, I think we have a good chance at success, but we need someone who is willing to propose ideas to Jay at RGG and work through him with HiG. I can do this, but I won't make a move until I know that we have something solid to propose. We want Jay to go "WOW" before trying to get the much larger HiG to say something similar!

That's it for now. We need someone willing to manage a future CarcCentral store service, a group of authors to sort through and find good expansion tiles for inclusion (and to organize them and clean them up well enough to aesthetically work with the official expansions), and someone to manage negotiations with Jay and HiG. I'll take the last job, but I want the group of authors to do the majority of the work. I want to propose it and be done with it. Let's get this ball rolling!

[Novelty]

With regards to 1., we do not have any mods or admins in the US.  Gantry is in Canada, but I don't think he's ideal (at the moment) to fill that role.  Matt is in Germany, Steve is in England, Tobias is in Sweden, all of which are HiG territory, so that rules them out running the CarcStore (or whatever) from there.

With regards to 2. we need some direction from RGG.  What are they looking for and what are they willing to publish?  Tiles with nothing new ala GQ11?  Or something that adds a new mechanic of some sort, e.g. Cathars?  Obviously that has to be sorted before the authors can even do anything.  Back to 3.

[Whaleyland]

Okay, okay. I'll send Jay an email and hope he replies with something other than: We'll just have to see what you come up with.

So Novelty, where are you? Obviously not the United States...and you kill people for a living...where does that place you...? Hmm. A mystery indeed.

Okay, so moderators are out for the job of treasurer. All we really need is someone who wouldn't mind getting a bunch of tile payments and then shipping off the tiles. Payment would probably just be through PayPal. I don't know where any profits would go. I mean, Jay would have to sell the items to someone at CarcCentral and then that person would need to be reimbursed. Any additional proceeds would need to go to site maintenance, I'm guessing, but I'm not entirely sure who manages the server space and domain. Matt or Gantry I'd guess since this is their site. We probably couldn't undercut Jay's price too much since it would probably be distributed as a mini-expansion, since no US-based magazine currently distributes expansions right now. Speaking of which, Games Quarterly may be dead, but we need a new games magazine here. All the world seems to have right now is Spielbox! That is a big job for one magazine...and the magazine's only in German! Anywho, someone here said that they lived near Gantry, so maybe the two of them could do the job in coordination. That's my suggestion.

[Gantry]

Agreed, I am not the idea person at this time.

[CKorfmann]

OK, here's my two cents on this one... though it looks more like a nickel!    Forgive me, the ideas are flowing.

Excellent idea and seems very doable.  What does GQ have to offer the Carcassonne world and HiG that we don't?  If they can do it, so can we.  Here are my comments/questions:

7. While there are a number of routes for distribution, our group has suggested through RGG, game stores and our web site.  Clearly your opinion weighs more heavily in this area than ours as you have the greatest experience. What is your suggestion for this?

If the expansion is produced, it would be distributed by RGG. You, of course, could act as a retailer for it.

So does this mean that Jay would ship everything from "his house" or simply that it would have his name on it (RRG) and we'd ship it from "our house."  If the latter is true, I'd strongly recommend that we have two shipping locations.  One in the States and one in Europe.  Shipping from the U.S. to Canada is simple and doesn't really cost that much more.  I'm not familiar with how things work in Europe, but someone there would be.  People elsewhere, like Australia (Sorry Nov!) would just have to pay a little extra.  Or, perhaps we could have a third, smaller "hub" down under.  Jay could ship them in bulk to each "hub" and they could be mailed out individually from there.  All transactions could be handled through PayPal and the "hub owners" could pay for shipping costs and supplies for individual orders with a PayPal debit card (on the same account, of course) so it wouldn't cost them anything personally except the time investment.  

First off, I think a great way to create our own CarcCentral store would to appoint someone very trustworthy to become the site store manager and treasurer. This should probably be a moderator, site owner, or someone else well-established.

With regards to 1., we do not have any mods or admins in the US.

Personally, I think this person could be anywhere in the world and a Mod or Admin would be an excellent choice.  They could process orders and send the shipping addresses to the European and American "hubs".

We need someone willing to manage a future CarcCentral store service, a group of authors to sort through and find good expansion tiles for inclusion (and to organize them and clean them up well enough to aesthetically work with the official expansions)...

Definitely count me in!  At the very least, I am willing to help with the selection process and anything I could do additionally to make it work.  As to the former, I'm willing to be the U.S. "hub" if that's the way things pan out and that's how we decide to work it.  I believe that you all will find me to be a man of integrity who can be trusted to do what we have suggested to the best of my ability.  As to my availability, my wife and I work for a Christian children's home as live-in "parents".  We live there with the children for two weeks and are off and at home for two weeks (unless we travel for some of it).  I'm frequently bored while at home (thus the amount of time I have to devote to CC) and my wife has been suggesting I find some kind of hobby or get a part-time job or something to fill the extra time.  I would love to do this!  Keep in mind that I'd be unavailable for two weeks at a time, but almost completely available the opposite two weeks (Tuesday to Tuesday).  The firewall on my computer at work limits me considerably.  I'm surprised I'm able to access this site there and that could come to an end.  I can't even receive my personal email there, but I have considered purchasing a wireless internet card for my laptop and having this responsibility might help make that decision.  The longest someone would possibly have to wait to have their order shipped would be two weeks.  However, we could make everyone aware of this at the beginning and I could keep some sets with me and ready to ship from the children's home in case of emergencies.  If you all would be comfortable with this, I'm game!

If we're collecting authors, I think we should recruit Kevin Graham too.

Mods, if you decide to split this to a new thread, here is a good spot!  
As to which tiles we should submit:

I think it would be good to have a mixture of tiles with new rules and tiles that don't require rules.

I whole-heartedly agree with Scott.  I believe there are two obvious choices.  The first is Families/Family Feud.  A 12-tile set of city tiles with red & yellow pennants would be very easy to do.  They would introduce new rules, but very simple ones that don't require a lot of explanation and could easily offer some new tile arrangements with a more vanilla flavor, if you will, as Scott and Whaley seem to favor.  Plus, it seems like an easy sell to HiG.  I'd be surprised if Families (as we know it) wasn’t something that is sitting on one of their idea boards somewhere.

I like the idea of including some of the 1-tile expansions that Joff has been cranking out recently.

While my personal favorite single tile is Solazy's Coliseum tile (though I've never been able to get a hold of him for permission to bring them here), Joff's Medieval expansion is the second obvious choice for me.  I believe Joff's excellent work represents the quality that the folks here at CarcCentral can bring to the table.  Each small expansion is simple to understand and people could pick and choose between them if they wanted.  I would, however, suggest a few substitutions.  I'm not sure four Stocks tiles and three Gallows tiles would best suit our purpose here, so I'd suggest just two of each.  As a substitute, I'd like to see two Lord of the Manor tiles (one city and one farm) added to it as well as the two Cleric and Serf token/tiles (replacing one of the Chivalry tiles) as the last two.  Just my opinion…  Perhaps it's too many new rules.  It could just as easily be left alone.

My ideas are seldom perfect so another option might be for Gantry and Matthew to pick their 6 or so favorites and have the authors vote on them with discussion.  

(Maybe an expansion with 6 gold mines and 6 something else.)

IMHO the perfect 6&6 expansion would be Ghettos & Gold Mines.  Maybe this could be our second offering if we get that chance.

Another idea I have for a subsequent offering (and maybe this would be better moved elsewhere) would be to offer “kits” to use with the two Creativity tiles that Jay produced with the CS&C set.  Since Creativity is an RRG offering, I wonder if we might not even be able to bypass HiG on this one, though it doesn’t sound like it.  Basically, we’d sell stickers of two-tile expansions that people could stick on their two blank tiles.  We’d also include any meeples, chits, or tokens that might be necessary.  These could include; JPutt’s excellent Wizards and Witches expansion, the Wormhole that JPutt and I are currently finishing up, any of Joff’s Medieval expansions compressed to two tiles, the Cleric & Serf token/tiles, the Roman Road and Temple, The Grim Reeple, Lord of the Manor in two tiles, The Pope of Avignon, Drought and Pestilence in two tiles, as well as any number of  our own, original, vanilla tile arrangements.  We could also throw in a couple random tiles with any one of our “no-tile” expansions like two wheat-resource city tiles with chits and Hog Roast, two tower base tiles with The Black Tower, or a cloister and a shrine tile with The Missionary.

There are my thoughts.  If you’re actually still reading, my condolences and gratitude!  

[Novelty]

As Whaleyland said, we need to send RGG an idea that would WOW them.  My apologies in advance for being a wet blanket, but...

The Families idea is not original to Carc Central, and thus I don't think that should be the first expansion.  Although we have permission to distribute it as a fan-made expansion, we might run into issues if HiG/RGG publishes it (e.g. what if the original author demands some sort of compensation?).

Gold Mines would be a great idea, but the entire tile would have to be redesigned, as it (re)uses the graphic from H&G.  Also, it would maybe close the door for HiG/RGG to produce a future Mountains expansion of some sort and I'm not sure if that's something that they'd want.

The Cleric and Serf images were drawn by a fan, and if HiG/RGG use those, they'll probably have to pay royalties or something.  Again, I'm not sure if that's idea.  They *could* use the images from the wheel, but they don't need it to be a CarcCentral expansion for them to do that - and we can't use those images because we don't have a good version of them (i.e. not obstructed by the wheel).

The medieval expansion suffers from rules that are a bit overcomplicated for our first expansion.  I should think we want something that is simple to understand, yet amazing for the first expansion (and not something with pages and pages of rules).  Thematically the Medieval expansion tiles do go together and I think they might make a great subsequent expansion, but it may not be wise to have them as the first expansion.

I know I've gotten kudos on the Ghetto tiles, but as have been pointed out, "holes" doesn't normally occur that frequently in games unless one's playing with Forests/Fishermen/Mountains.  I'm not sure if Ghetto will be of any use as a first expansion.

I'm sorry to say this, but the wormhole is so thematically outside the character of Carcassonne, that I doubt HiG will even approve it!

Jabberworkcy's expansions (Roman Road/Temple, Drought & Pestilence, etc.) are way too powerful and could potentially unbalance the game and make them less fun.  That's not something that we might want to put out as a first expansion.

The Grim Reeple and Pope of Avignon both comes with specialised meeples, which we might want to avoid for a first expansion.  A sheet of tiles is easier to ship.  A meeple complicates things and we might want to leave them off the list until we are sure that things work smoothly.

Witches & Wizards and Lord of the Manor are great expansions, are good choices, but they don't make me go WOW.  The tiles are great, but the idea behind the tiles are just OK.  I guess these should be on the shortlist of the ideas that we propose to Jay, but it'd be nice if we can come up with something better.

Again, apologies to the authors of those expansions.  I'm not dissing your expansion as such, and am not trying to insult you or put you down.  However, I *DO* want to propose the best idea to Jay and to ensure the best chance of success for the CarcCentral expansion, and that's where I'm coming from.

Also, do the authors agree to give up all rights (ideas, graphics, etc.) for free/gratis to HiG/RGG in return for their idea being officially made into a CarcCentral expansion with no compensation of any sort?  That's the other thing we'll have to sort out.  For me, I'd be happy to have my idea officially made into a tile(s) and I don't expect a single cent for it.  In fact, I'll probably buy a whole truckload of of the expansion to give away out of pride

[CKorfmann]

I did not intend to offer the expansions that require meeples or extra pieces as our first submission.  If you read again, and I appologize, I know its long, I was suggesting some of those things as possible subsequent offerings if it goes well and Jay wants to do something again.  That's probably a topic for another day.

I agree that the author would probably be required to receive no compensation and I'm with you Nov.  I'd be happy just to have my expansion made.

[Whaleyland]

Also, do the authors agree to give up all rights (ideas, graphics, etc.) for free/gratis to HiG/RGG in return for their idea being officially made into a CarcCentral expansion with no compensation of any sort?  That's the other thing we'll have to sort out.  For me, I'd be happy to have my idea officially made into a tile(s) and I don't expect a single cent for it.  In fact, I'll probably buy a whole truckload of of the expansion to give away out of pride

For those of you thinking to yourself: "Hey, but I thought it up and I want to reap the profits!" Remember, we have dozens of expansions to choose from and the chances that any author, from here or elsewhere, is to get royalties for an expansion published by HiG or RGG is very slim. They have their own design and production teams that get paid salaries...they don't need your idea (although they maybe should consider it) and we don't need your specific expansion (even if it is really good) if you are going to fuss about royalties. That being said, I'd assume no one here would really mind getting their idea published without getting any compensation. I know I wouldn't care. I mean, hey, you're idea is getting published. That's awesome. You still get author credit (I assume) and can be listed on BGG as a game designer, which is pretty awesome!

Now, while we await a response from Jay, which I don't expect until Tuesday at the earliest, let's keep discussing expansions. One obvious solution to any/all of our problems is to create a new, unique expansion based exclusively on ideas thought up here, but simplified so that it a) does not require additional followers, figures, or pieces, and b) is not very complex. I also suggest, and forgot to do so last night, that we suggest only one major new rule. That rules out things like the individual Medieval Expansions by Joff. While they are fun and unique, trying to introduce players to up to 12 new rules/concepts is a bit much. It may not be just experienced Carcassonne players that buy this, it may be first-timers looking for a small, cheap expansion. I bought GQ11 when I bought my Big Box and it was mostly because it was small, cheap, and easy to integrate with the base game. Twelve tiles is a lot of tiles and can be quite powerful. The Catapult was a 12-tile expansion but considered a large expansion, so keep that in mind (despite the relative crappiness of the expansion).

While my first suggestion was to be the Families expansion, Novelty brings up a good point that that isn't actually a CarcCentral expansion. But I think something along those lines could be a good idea. If every tile could be a part of the expansion, that would be great as long as it's not too much (as in too unbalancing, too complicated). I'm not impressed with our WOWness yet, but perhaps if Matt or Gantry moved this topic up to a higher category, people may participate more. I feel like it is in the bottom part of the screen, which people don't see if they don't scroll down. Move us up! Please...

One last thing, CKorfmann, you're right that I don't think it matters where the seller is located, but they do have to be able to accept US Dollars in their PayPal account. However, I think Jay is planning this as a retail release, with CarcCentral just being one of the many suppliers (like any other online store). I don't think he plans or expects us to release it exclusively, rather he wants to get it out to stores as probably a mini-expansion like Cult, Siege & Creativity. While it would have been a magazine expansion ideally, the magazines have all gone under in the US so Jay will probably have to sell this commercially.

[Joff]

Remember the Medieval Expansion consists of four individual expansions. I would like to see Jousting Tournament as an official tile (there is only one tile to this expansion), but I understand and agree that the rules may be seen as quite complicated (although The Orders of Chivalry is not complicated at all, IMO).

I agree with Novelty, that doing Families is difficult. We would be better off setting the limit at 12 tiles, some with simple rules, others different configurations, etc. and no additional meeples.

Perhaps Authors could post here relinquishing their rights to their expansions in the event of them being published by either CC/HiG/RGG. At least that way we know who is in with their expansions and who isn't.

[Joff]

As I have already stated, any ideas of mine are free to be used by Carcassonne Central / HiG / RGG with no royalties payable to me whatsoever, (although a mention of the author would be nice ), in the event of them getting 'officially' published.

[JPutt927]

I second what Joff said. Any ideas of mine are free to be used. Furthermore...let me bring up my Mills expansion. To simplify things, the Bakeries could be removed, making the expansion only 5 new tiles with no complicated rules. Yet, it does bring something different in the form of a new feature to be deployed to and a different layout of tiles required to complete it (3 tiles on each side). Just a thought... 

[CKorfmann]

A very wise friend once told me, "If you don’t ask, they can't say 'Yes'."  That said...

Perhaps we are putting too many limits on ourselves.  Whaley has noted that most of the magazines are out of business, so there really isn't a distribution option with any them.  We will be limited to "normal" distribution methods like the FLGS.  So, what method of delivery are we left with?  I think it leaves us with two options.  First being a tuck box, 12 tiles or less with a small little rules sheet folded up and crammed down the edge.  Maybe somebody sees it on the shelf, or maybe it gets hidden next to all those big boxes next to it.  Or, second (dare I say) a regular, large expansion.  Maybe it's just 12 tiles like Catapult, maybe it's 18 like the Tower, but maybe even 30 like P&D!  What does HiG have to loose?  They get paid for our work… sounds like they would be getting a pretty good deal.  What's more... who would be better to promote and put forth such a work than a fan site solely devoted to their product; this one game.  We are their best friends.  We buy everything with a "C" on it (even when it sucks!) and promote it to everyone we know.  I think we need to look at this as us doing them a favor.  Let's say, "Hey, we'd love to do this for you!" rather than saying, "Could you do something for us?"  Granted, they might not see it that way, but they are men, and they could be convinced. 

The Cleric and Serf images were drawn by a fan, and if HiG/RGG use those, they'll probably have to pay royalties or something.

See top of post.  In regard to royalties, let's not be too quick to walk through the door holding up a sign that says "We work for free!"  I certainly agree that I'd rather not see a dime than give up a chance to get something original published.  However, the art/entertainment/business world runs on royalties and I'm sure they know that.  I propose that we never even bring it up.  Let's let them bring it up.  They might surprise us and be perfectly willing to pay royalties. 

They *could* use the images from the wheel, but they don't need it to be a CarcCentral expansion for them to do that - and we can't use those images because we don't have a good version of them (i.e. not obstructed by the wheel).

4. Do you have a contact name at HiG?
Dirk - dirk.geilenkeuser@hans-im-glueck.de

Maybe this guy could help with that.

As Whaleyland said, we need to send RGG an idea that would WOW them.

The biggest 'Wow' I've heard lately is for JPutt's Seasons expansion.  I think it really is excellent and by the other comments I've read, it would appear as though many people agree.  It could easily be cleaned up (with the fan-made components having to be removed) and brought as an offering.  This would be very ambitious, but what do we have to loose?  At least, perhaps we could make two offerings.  One ambitious like this and one more reserved and let them choose.

A completely new expansion created by a coalition of authors could also be the answer.

[mjharper]

A completely new expansion created by a coalition of authors could also be the answer.

My vote goes for the long awaited Monty Python and the Holy Grail in Carcassonne total conversion...

But seriously, what CKorfmann writes makes a great deal of sense. My only concern is with royalties: if we start to receive royalties, don't we stop being a non-commercial fan site? I think there are implications that need to be considered here.

Oh, and just kicking ideas around, it's been mentioned before that the CAR should appeal to HiG as something which could possibly be published. I'm not sure how I would feel about that, but were it to be the case it would provide a good opportunity for a small expansion to be bundled with it. That's completely far out, but just another possible 'means of distribution', if you see what I mean... 'Course, that would raise the whole royalty issue again.