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Author Topic: The Ocean  (Read 81071 times)
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skipboris
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« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2009, 12:32:04 am »

0.6 many revisions and new diagrams and examples.

get it here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=18d688970a740dd6a0f2f20c509059d903fac10b224880655621d66e282a0ee8

or here
http://www.mediafire.com/file/tmqy2hjjont/Ocean 0.6.doc

or here
http://www.mediafire.com/?tmqy2hjjont

Sorry, not sure which ones will work for you.  Let me know what needs refinement, thanks. As soon as I finish this I'll start on the expansions which should make this much more interesting!
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« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2009, 09:23:52 am »

OK, here we go again.  As usual, bold = add, strikethrough = delete.  I hope I'm not being too harsh...

General: Check your spacing before and after headings, they are not even.

General: How many starter tiles are there, one or more than one?  Pick either "starter tile" or "starter tiles" and use it consistantly in the document.

General: "Move the wood" is not mentioned anywhere in the rules.  I generally don't use the term and use "instead of playing a follower, or any of the actions associated with playing a follower" or something like that.  If you want to use it, please define what the term means.

Note: The wagon is considered a follower.  So this expansion doesn't introduce follower movement!

Header: The "T" in The Ocean is not capitalised.  I have no idea if this is intentional or not.

Page 2:

My MS Word shows a box instead of ... at the end of the story (i.e. after "The ocean is not for the feint of heart").  Not a major issue, unless I'm PDF-ing the document!

Text justification needed  on the extra pieces bullet points

Preparation: (Suggestion) Would it not make more sense to talk about placing the Starter tile, then shuffling "the remaining" or "the other" tiles with the rest of the tiles?

My MS Word shows the starter tile on the 3rd page.  It would look better to either (i) adjust the spacing on Page 2 so that the starter tile fits on Page 2, (ii) adjust the size of the starter tile so that it fits on page 2, (iii) a combination of (i) and (ii) or (iv) move the heading to Page 3.  Your choice.

Page 3:

Drawing an Ocean Tile: When a player draws a tile which depicts with the Ocean (or Reef) on any side, he must play it on the ocean side of the map, OR extend the starter beach.   If extending the starter tiles, you may not place a tile so that it turns the beach perpendicular to the starter tiles.  The beach should generally be stretched extended in a straight line.

The Ocean:

"The Ocean is new,"  --> No it's not.  The Oceans are older than your mom Smiley  I think you mean "The Ocean is a new landscape feature,"

"and the most common feature in this expansion" --> Do you really have to mention this?  It's like The Tower mentioning that tower foundations are the most common feature in this expansion.  I think it's superfluous.

"Mechanically," --> Whoa, it has wheels and an engine?  No?  Machines?  No?  Then it can't be mechanically anything Smiley  The original Carc rules do not use the term "mechanic" or "mechanical" or "mechanically".  I think this word can be deleted from the rules.

"it plays the same" --> is probably how one would say it, but it is bad written English.  "It is played the same way" is that phrase in full.

And reading through the rest of the section just got me more confused.  What are fishing zone?  What do you mean by "sailed".  It is confusing.

My suggestion for this section:

"The Ocean is a new landscape feature, some of which may have the following:"
{picture of reef}
Reef
{picture of fishing zone}
Fishing Zone
etc. etc.

I would scrap the analogy with the farmers because that's just confusing, i.e. You don't start the farmer at a barn and "sail" a farmer out to a field to deploy them.  In fact, I won't even talk about the followers in this section.  Since this section is shortened, I would move it before "Drawing an Ocean Tile" and it nicely introduces what is an ocean tile, before talking about drawing it and playing it.

I would create a new section after this, which would be the equivalent of "2. Place a follower" (since "Drawing an Ocean Tile" is equivalent to "1. Draw a tile").

The text would be something like:
When the player has placed the Ocean tile, he or she may do the following actions:
1. Deploy a follower to the harbour
2. Sail
3. Deploy a follower to the reef
etc. etc.
and then restructure the sections below such that it follows this order.  I would advice against making reference to cloisters, roads, etc. as that's just confusing.  (They are similar, but not exactly the same)

And after all that has been describe, add the equivalent of "3. Score a completed XYZ" and then "Scoring at the end of the game" and you should be set!  Good job so far, I like how this is shaping up!
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skipboris
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« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2009, 05:49:28 pm »

Thank you so much for that detailed reply.  You know I'll put it to good use!
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skipboris
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« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2009, 01:43:11 am »

OK, here we go again.  As usual, bold = add, strikethrough = delete.  I hope I'm not being too harsh...

General: Check your spacing before and after headings, they are not even. Fixed

General: How many starter tiles are there, one or more than one?  Pick either "starter tile" or "starter tiles" and use it consistantly in the document. Hopefully fixed

General: "Move the wood" is not mentioned anywhere in the rules.  I generally don't use the term and use "instead of playing a follower, or any of the actions associated with playing a follower" or something like that.  If you want to use it, please define what the term means. Footnote added for clarification

Note: The wagon is considered a follower.  So this expansion doesn't introduce follower movement! Fixed

Header: The "T" in The Ocean is not capitalised.  I have no idea if this is intentional or not. Fixed. Originally I was copying the title format for "the Discovery"

Page 2:

My MS Word shows a box instead of ... at the end of the story (i.e. after "The ocean is not for the feint of heart").  Not a major issue, unless I'm PDF-ing the document! Replaced ... with !

Text justification needed  on the extra pieces bullet points Fixed

Preparation: (Suggestion) Would it not make more sense to talk about placing the Starter tile, then shuffling "the remaining" or "the other" tiles with the rest of the tiles? Fixed, though generally these steps can be done in any order.

My MS Word shows the starter tile on the 3rd page.  It would look better to either (i) adjust the spacing on Page 2 so that the starter tile fits on Page 2, (ii) adjust the size of the starter tile so that it fits on page 2, (iii) a combination of (i) and (ii) or (iv) move the heading to Page 3.  Your choice. Hmmm it shows it on Page 2 for me.  I might have to be the guy to PDF this, though it alway seems to screw up my computer...

Page 3:

Drawing an Ocean Tile: When a player draws a tile which depicts with the Ocean (or Reef) on any side, he must play it on the ocean side of the map, OR extend the starter beach.   If extending the starter tiles, you may not place a tile so that it turns the beach perpendicular to the starter tiles.  The beach should generally be stretched extended in a straight line. Fixed

The Ocean:

"The Ocean is new,"  --> No it's not.  The Oceans are older than your mom Smiley  I think you mean "The Ocean is a new landscape feature," fixed

"and the most common feature in this expansion" --> Do you really have to mention this?  It's like The Tower mentioning that tower foundations are the most common feature in this expansion.  I think it's superfluous. fixed

"Mechanically," --> Whoa, it has wheels and an engine?  No?  Machines?  No?  Then it can't be mechanically anything Smiley  The original Carc rules do not use the term "mechanic" or "mechanical" or "mechanically".  I think this word can be deleted from the rules. Game mechanics, how it works, in other words.  I can't think of a better word to use.  Basically I'm trying to say "use the farming rules except for these differences:"

"it plays the same" --> is probably how one would say it, but it is bad written English.  "It is played the same way" is that phrase in full. hopefully fixed

And reading through the rest of the section just got me more confused.  What are fishing zone?  What do you mean by "sailed".  It is confusing. hopefully fixed

My suggestion for this section:

"The Ocean is a new landscape feature, some of which may have the following:"
{picture of reef}
Reef
{picture of fishing zone}
Fishing Zone
etc. etc.

I would scrap the analogy with the farmers because that's just confusing, i.e. You don't start the farmer at a barn and "sail" a farmer out to a field to deploy them.  In fact, I won't even talk about the followers in this section.  Since this section is shortened, I would move it before "Drawing an Ocean Tile" and it nicely introduces what is an ocean tile, before talking about drawing it and playing it. I decided to use the farmer analogy because it saves a lot of time explaining how that works.  Hopefully it reads a bit better now.

I would create a new section after this, which would be the equivalent of "2. Place a follower" (since "Drawing an Ocean Tile" is equivalent to "1. Draw a tile").  Yes, I'm basically relying on the reader to read the entire document, then ask questions.  I added in the flow chart to try to explain further.

The text would be something like:
When the player has placed the Ocean tile, he or she may do the following actions:
1. Deploy a follower to the harbour
2. Sail
3. Deploy a follower to the reef
etc. etc.
and then restructure the sections below such that it follows this order.  I would advice against making reference to cloisters, roads, etc. as that's just confusing.  (They are similar, but not exactly the same) Hopefully fixed

And after all that has been describe, add the equivalent of "3. Score a completed XYZ" and then "Scoring at the end of the game" and you should be set!  Good job so far, I like how this is shaping up!

Thanks again, my comments in RED.  Here is the updated version: http://www.mediafire.com/?ynmnyudncmk
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CKorfmann
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« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2009, 11:33:22 am »

I'm not sure if it's addressed in this thread or if you read the one where it is, but what do you think about using the ships from Catan as the followers for these tiles?  Also, how about The Pirate (i.e. The King and Robber Baron).
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 12:35:40 pm by CKorfmann » Logged

Flee the fleas!
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« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2009, 06:09:50 pm »

I'm not sure if it's addressed in this thread or if you read the one where it is, but what do you think about using the ships from Catan as the followers for these tiles?  Also, how about The Pirate (i.e. The King and Robber Baron).

Yea I definitely thought of this before.  The way I see it there are benefits and negatives for doing that.

The benefit is that it would look better an fit the theme better.

The negatives are many:
-More meeples to buy and store
-How do you know which ones are sailing, fishing, and pirating? 
-Follower management is a large part of this game.  If you say each player gets 2 boats then that is as large as your fleet can get.  It would then be difficult to establish any sort of dominance on the Ocean.  On the other hand if you gave every player 8 boats then the follower pile would be that much bigger.  The basic idea behind the ocean is that you are risking more with greater point potential.  With 8 boats follower management becomes much less of an issue.

All that being said, I'm trying to create a high quality expansion that really brings something new and looks good.  Maybe in my next version I will write up some optional rules for boat meeples.  I think it would look better, for sure.  Thanks
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« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2009, 06:16:04 pm »

On those boats, boardgamebits has them...
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skipboris
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« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2009, 06:26:04 pm »

I'm not sure if it's addressed in this thread or if you read the one where it is, but what do you think about using the ships from Catan as the followers for these tiles?  Also, how about The Pirate (i.e. The King and Robber Baron).

Also, there will be future expansions that put an ocean twist on current expansions such as King & Baron.  I will need some art for the pirate leader and the governor.
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« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2009, 07:26:38 pm »

Also, there will be future expansions that put an ocean twist on current expansions such as King & Baron.  I will need some art for the pirate leader and the governor.
Please make sure you have the rights (or agreement from the artist) for Carc Central to distribute those images.  Otherwise, we can't host it here.
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« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2009, 12:30:51 am »

Also, there will be future expansions that put an ocean twist on current expansions such as King & Baron.  I will need some art for the pirate leader and the governor.
Please make sure you have the rights (or agreement from the artist) for Carc Central to distribute those images.  Otherwise, we can't host it here.

Yea that's basically what I'm looking for.  I'm hoping that some talented person will be up for drawing a couple pictures for this.  Otherwise there might not be a King & Robber Baron type expansion for this.
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« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2009, 03:34:47 pm »

Hey I know some Ocean tiles when I see them!  Let me know if you give it a try with the rough rules I'm dying to know what other people think.  Is it fun?  Is it meaningful?  Oh and nice press!

I think it's better to post the answer here...

I tested it one time (photos later), very difficulty the rules. Many things were not clear after reading the rules several times.

Examples are the parts: Placing wood on Islands (where to put after sailing to it, what if there is a town (owned by other player?) on the tile you've sailed to (can I go to the Island or do I have to sail around the towntiles?)), who is allowed to use which harbours and when...

Reefs often makes it very difficulty to place tiles, because they often do not fit.

All the rules with the fleets and the fighting - that was too much, we left them out.

And the flow chart - the issue "check follower on island" - here I expect results and instructions for the results - e.g. YES - arrow to... NO - arrow to...

My feeling was - there are less tiles with water on 3 edges - it was not easy to get islands...

I hope these comments will help you for your work on that nice expansion, because I like many parts on it  Smiley

« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 03:37:58 pm by bufferm44 » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2009, 07:39:11 pm »

Hey I know some Ocean tiles when I see them!  Let me know if you give it a try with the rough rules I'm dying to know what other people think.  Is it fun?  Is it meaningful?  Oh and nice press!

I think it's better to post the answer here...

I tested it one time (photos later), very difficulty the rules. Many things were not clear after reading the rules several times.

Examples are the parts: Placing wood on Islands (where to put after sailing to it, what if there is a town (owned by other player?) It's still OK.  It's just serving as a marker that you have found the island.on the tile you've sailed to (can I go to the Island or do I have to sail around the towntiles?)), who is allowed to use which harbours and when... Everyone can use starter tile Harbours anytime.  After that, if your sailor has landed on an island with a harbour you may use it.  Once that island completes everyone may use it.

Reefs often makes it very difficulty to place tiles, because they often do not fit. This expansion directly copies the tile layout for the main game, with extras.  Adding 2 new elements increased the tile combinations by a lot.  Please tell me exact tiles that I'm missing and I will be sure to include them in future expansions.

All the rules with the fleets and the fighting - that was too much, we left them out. I'll try to simplify. I felt there needed to be a way to fight against other players otherwise one could set up an impassable blockade.  It also adds a layer of strategy, especially with the reefs

And the flow chart - the issue "check follower on island" - here I expect results and instructions for the results - e.g. YES - arrow to... NO - arrow to... Ok I can fix that.

My feeling was - there are less tiles with water on 3 edges - it was not easy to get islands... I was afraid of this.  2 options: 1) eliminate growing islands rules. 2)Future expansions will have a lot of Island ends to close them off easier.

I hope these comments will help you for your work on that nice expansion, because I like many parts on it  Smiley



Comments in red.  Thanks for the feedback.  I fully intend on refining this until it is easy for all to understand.  Basically until you see 'Rules 1.0' consider this a beta test.  That being said, the tile sheets are finalized and I need lots of feedback from playtesters.  Here is a full package download with all finalized sheets (with watermarks on all pages) and rules up to .61: http://www.mediafire.com/?mgx2yydmozz
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 07:43:25 pm by skipboris » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: April 04, 2009, 05:02:20 am »


This expansion directly copies the tile layout for the main game, with extras.  Adding 2 new elements increased the tile combinations by a lot.



Yes that is true, you can also see it here :-)

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=748.msg9632#msg9632



Please tell me exact tiles that I'm missing and I will be sure to include them in future expansions.



The photos are on my girlfriends cam, i will post them later, no problem..



It's just serving as a marker that you have found the island. Everyone can use starter tile Harbours anytime.  After that, if your sailor has landed on an island with a harbour you may use it.  Once that island completes everyone may use it.



This was very clear :-) You should add this to tre rules.

Tobi

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« Reply #58 on: April 06, 2009, 11:01:28 am »

OK, here are my comments on the fixes:

To explore the Ocean, as your entire “move the wood”  phase of your turn, place a follower on a harbour  tile.

1. It's bad English to start a sentence with the preposition "to"
2. The footnote is incorrect.

A better way to say it would be:
During your turn, after playing a tile, and instead of playing a follower to the tile, or or any of the actions associated with playing a follower, you may explore the ocean by playing a follower to:
1. the harbour that was just played.
2. any harbour that is already in play.

I have no idea whether it's 1 or 2, and the rules doesn't say.

Here's my suggestion of how to structure the (current) next 2 sections after the Starter tile (bold = proposed additions, strikethroughs= proposed deletions):

Quote
The Ocean

The Ocean tiles contains the following new landscape features.

{Picture of a tile with a reef}
Reef

{Picture of a 4 tile fishing zone surrounded by reefs and coast}
Fishing Zone

{picture of an island}
Island

{Picture of a governor's mansion}
Governor's mansion

{picture of a harbour}
Harbours

+ anything else I missed

Drawing an Ocean tile

When a player draws a tile which depicts the Ocean (or Reef or Governor's Island), he must play it on the ocean side of the map, or extend the Ocean starter tile to make the mainland beach even longer.   If extending the starter tile, you may not place a tile so that it turns the beach perpendicular to the starter tile.  The beach should generally be extended in a straight line, dividing the playing surface into 2 sides: the Carcassonne mainland and the Ocean.  You also may not use a normal, non-ocean tile to extend the starter tile, nor may you place it on the Ocean side of the map unless it is extending an Island.  The ocean uses many of the same tile placement mechanics as the main game.  Reefs connect to reefs, ocean to ocean, island city to island city, etc.

Deploy a follower
After a player has played a tile that depicts the Ocean, or Reef, or Governor's Island, he or she may carry out one the following actions(insert footnote):
1. Deploy a follower to the ocean segment (which is also known as a fishing zone) as a fishermen
2. Deploy a follower to the reef segment as a pirate
3. Deploy a follower to a harbour (that was just played/anywhere in play - delete as necessary)
4. Sail to an Island
5+. Whatever that I've missed out.

Footnote: These actions are considered to be part of the deploying a follower part of the turn.  These actions cannot be carried out if another action is carried out instead of deploying a follower (e.g. placing a tower block).


Fishing Zones

In game terms, ithe blue ocean areas are playsed very similar to the grassy farms of Carcassonne.  (one player controls the whole zone, scoring at the end of the game.)  Followers may be deployed to the ocean as a fisherman, after having sailed to the fishing zone (costs 1 of your 2 moves to deploy).  A fishing zone is a body of ocean completely enclosed by reefs, tile edges, and land (Just like farms on the land portion).  They score according to different land masses in their zone, like a farmer scores for cities in his zone.  The only other difference between a farmer and a fisherman is the score; fishermen score 4 points for every land mass that the fishing zone touches, or 8 points if the landmass that it touches has a harbour (including the main land).  Lay your meeple on it’s back to show it’s a fisherman.  Once a meeple has been designated as a fisherman, it remains a fisherman for the rest of the game.  Other sailors may not sail through tiles that are occupied by fishermen.

and then the following sections so that it "flows" according to the numbered list I had above in Deploy a follower above:

Reefs
Harbours
Sailing
Fleets
Ocean Challenge
Islands
Governor's Mansions

And then everything from Final Scoring is fine (with the exception that I had no blue background on the last page, but it's probably a display thing)

Edit:I hope that helps.  Once it's structured in a sensible way that's easier to read without jumping all over the document, then we can go through the nitty gritty again Smiley
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 11:03:45 am by Novelty » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2009, 04:02:01 pm »

OK, here are my comments on the fixes:

To explore the Ocean, as your entire “move the wood”  phase of your turn, place a follower on a harbour  tile.

1. It's bad English to start a sentence with the preposition "to"
2. The footnote is incorrect.

A better way to say it would be:
During your turn, after playing a tile, and instead of playing a follower to the tile, or or any of the actions associated with playing a follower, you may explore the ocean by playing a follower to:
1. the harbour that was just played.
2. any harbour that is already in play.

I have no idea whether it's 1 or 2, and the rules doesn't say.

Here's my suggestion of how to structure the (current) next 2 sections after the Starter tile (bold = proposed additions, strikethroughs= proposed deletions):

Quote
The Ocean

The Ocean tiles contains the following new landscape features.

{Picture of a tile with a reef}
Reef

{Picture of a 4 tile fishing zone surrounded by reefs and coast}
Fishing Zone

{picture of an island}
Island

{Picture of a governor's mansion}
Governor's mansion

{picture of a harbour}
Harbours

+ anything else I missed

Drawing an Ocean tile

When a player draws a tile which depicts the Ocean (or Reef or Governor's Island), he must play it on the ocean side of the map, or extend the Ocean starter tile to make the mainland beach even longer.   If extending the starter tile, you may not place a tile so that it turns the beach perpendicular to the starter tile.  The beach should generally be extended in a straight line, dividing the playing surface into 2 sides: the Carcassonne mainland and the Ocean.  You also may not use a normal, non-ocean tile to extend the starter tile, nor may you place it on the Ocean side of the map unless it is extending an Island.  The ocean uses many of the same tile placement mechanics as the main game.  Reefs connect to reefs, ocean to ocean, island city to island city, etc.

Deploy a follower
After a player has played a tile that depicts the Ocean, or Reef, or Governor's Island, he or she may carry out one the following actions(insert footnote):
1. Deploy a follower to the ocean segment (which is also known as a fishing zone) as a fishermen
2. Deploy a follower to the reef segment as a pirate
3. Deploy a follower to a harbour (that was just played/anywhere in play - delete as necessary)
4. Sail to an Island
5+. Whatever that I've missed out.

Footnote: These actions are considered to be part of the deploying a follower part of the turn.  These actions cannot be carried out if another action is carried out instead of deploying a follower (e.g. placing a tower block).


Fishing Zones

In game terms, ithe blue ocean areas are playsed very similar to the grassy farms of Carcassonne.  (one player controls the whole zone, scoring at the end of the game.)  Followers may be deployed to the ocean as a fisherman, after having sailed to the fishing zone (costs 1 of your 2 moves to deploy).  A fishing zone is a body of ocean completely enclosed by reefs, tile edges, and land (Just like farms on the land portion).  They score according to different land masses in their zone, like a farmer scores for cities in his zone.  The only other difference between a farmer and a fisherman is the score; fishermen score 4 points for every land mass that the fishing zone touches, or 8 points if the landmass that it touches has a harbour (including the main land).  Lay your meeple on it’s back to show it’s a fisherman.  Once a meeple has been designated as a fisherman, it remains a fisherman for the rest of the game.  Other sailors may not sail through tiles that are occupied by fishermen.

and then the following sections so that it "flows" according to the numbered list I had above in Deploy a follower above:

Reefs
Harbours
Sailing
Fleets
Ocean Challenge
Islands
Governor's Mansions

And then everything from Final Scoring is fine (with the exception that I had no blue background on the last page, but it's probably a display thing)

Edit:I hope that helps.  Once it's structured in a sensible way that's easier to read without jumping all over the document, then we can go through the nitty gritty again Smiley

Thanks again for the comments.  I will pour over them in greater detail, but I just wanted to mention there is no "deploy a follower" in the Ocean, at least in the traditional sense.  You must sail to whatever you want to claim.  You only deploy to harbors.  You then must sail (in subsequent turns)to whatever you want to claim.  (This is why the Ocean is weighted heavier in VP: it takes longer to claim anything)If your sailor has landed on an Island, you now have access to a mini game of Carcassonne where only those that have landed on the island may play, perhaps only 1 player.  So if you have a sailor that has landed on an island, and you extend the island by placing a tile, you could deploy a follower to the road,farm, or city using traditional rules.  You could not deploy to any ocean or reef segments on that tile because your sailors couldn't have arrived there yet.  Maybe I need better examples...
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 04:05:58 pm by skipboris » Logged
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