Fighters & Scholars

[edmil]

Thanks Novelty for taking the time to read and respond.

Most of the answers to the questions you asked were in the rules the majority were in the footnotes.  I have included the page number and the footnote with the answer where applicable.

Given that many of the answers were in the document maybe it's not the best layout - would it be better to have end notes rather than foot notes.  e.g like one big question and answer section at the end.

* Moving the wood needs to be explained, as this term is not used in any of the official Carc rules.

My mistake I thought this was a generic term used I actually picked it up from reading a lot on this site. Will remove and rewrite.

* I don't think a follower can occupy the same square as the dragon.  If the follower wins the conflict against the dragon on the same tile, what happens to the follower?  Do you check for the conflict at every step since the dragon is still on the tile?

If the dragon's final move ends on the same tile as a follower and the follower wins the conflict the dragon and follower share the tile.  on the next move it moves from the tile but conflict does not occur again.  Subsequent returns to the tile will create conflict. 

If the dragon falls on the same tile as a follower mid move and the follower wins the conflict then the dragon continues moving for the rest of its moves. page 9  footnote 32   
 
Will clarify this better in the rules.

* I don't see this, but if a level 1 or 2 follower is successfully captured by a player from the tower, what happens to the training?  I presume the follower loses the training, but I don't see that in the rules.

Retains training in accordance with retention rule See page 9 paragraph 2,  further clarification  page 9 footnote 31

* Can wagons, which are followers be trained?

Yes  page 3 footnote 10

* Can the barn, builder or pig, which are not followers, be trained?

Not directly but the follower they are associated with comes to their aid therefore if the follower has been leveled up they get the same benefit as if they were leveled -  page 3, foot note 13 

* How about a new fan-made expansion that has a ship follower.  Can it be trained?

If it is like a wagon then yes. 

* What happens when the mayor gets trained?  Does it have the +1 or +2 bonus even in a city with no pennants?

Base majority plus +1 or + 2  page 7 footnote 26. Probably needs better clarification.  Mayor is trained but majority only kicks in when there is one or more pennants

* If a follower that has trained is moved to another tile, does the training move with it?

Follower retains training until Killed, seduced, returned to player and loses training under retention rules

* If I'm exchanging (e.g. Catapult) a follower with training for another follower, does the new follower retain the training?

Follows the retention rules  see page 8

* How many points does a trained farmer gets per city, if it is removed by a barn during play?

Training does not affect points only majority.  If there are training tiles connected to the farm the bonus 5 points scored when farmer removed and at the end when the barn is scored - this is in line with current scoring

* Can "neutral" figures like the fairy, etc. be trained?

No the Fairy and the dragon are not followers and cannot be trained

* (I think I read this in the rules, but can't find it again...) Can a follower in the City of Carcassonne be trained?

Yes - page 3 footnote 6

Personally I think this expansion strays too far from Carc's basic mechanics (and premise) of tile and meeple placement, so it's not for me and I doubt I'd be making it.

Possibly, however it probably strays no further than the inclusion of the princess and the  dragon or the catapult.

That and the fact that it would take time to "interupt" the game for training is a minus in my book.

Interruption to game is quite minimal it will be dependent upon players. We found that training only occurred when there was a good reason i.e big city, dragon close. so we didn't spend a lot of time just training for the sake of training it actually became quite strategic.

Determining Conflict outcomes is just a way of countering the affects of the dragon or the tower inclusions.

However, having said that, it does have a heavy RPG element, and it might be attractive to someone else other than me.  After all, the fact that it's being made shows that at least 1 person likes it.

Don't count me in as the someone attracted to RPG. Carcassonne is my first board game  - well other than monopoly, scrabble, yahtzee and many years ago Chess

I'm looking forward to the updated images and rules.

I have had an attempt at blending the sand and grass but I couldn't find the blur tool in Paint Shop Pro so I just tried softening and smudging the edges. Will upload as soon as I'm finished.   Will clarify those aspects of the rules and upload as well.

BTW, there's a lot of "blank space" in the rules document, which increases its length.  Perhaps those could be eliminated to shorten the document some?

Hang over from so much report writing. White space good for readability - so I keep getting told.

Thanks again for going through the rules.
Whether or not the expansion is taken up is entirely up to the individual. For me the development of the expansion was about the challenge and also offering something back to the community.  This is a great board and I have got a lot from all those that have contributed.

[edmil]

I have just uploaded version 3 of fighters and scholars.  This update is a rar file as there are now 4 pdf files for distribution.

Fighters & Scholars.rar


The upload includes:

   1 completely rewritten rules document
   2 pdf files that contain the tiles and tokens
   1 pdf that contains red and green tile backs


Changes in version 3
   The rules document has been completely rewritten in an attempt to make it more readable.
   Added a terminology section to the rules
   Question & answers accompany each section rather than copious numbers of footnotes.
   The ability to train 2 extra followers has been removed - just made it too complex and was of little value.
   Additional questions have been added

Updates to tiles
   Land & feature tiles have been redone. A training school and field appear on each tile along with a watermark
   Outcome tiles have been redone including new images on the training outcome tiles.
   The Level & training tokens have been redone to make them sharper
   A 'Level retention' tile has been included.
   Red & green tile backs have been included if single sided outcome tiles are desired.


If there are no further changes requested by the community then the expansion should be ready to go.
Pdf files should be printed at 100%
Players have a choice of double-sided outcome tiles or single-sided tile ( red for conflict outcome, green for training outcome)

For a quick start a dice could be used and any other sort of token used to represent the levels


My wife and I have play tested the file and found it to be very playable and didn't seem to add a lot of difficulty to the game.  The increase in points  due to the Training tile Bonuses was very helpful especially when you have a number of them included in a feature.

Any feedback is happily accepted.


Enjoy

[Novelty]

I get a page not found

[edmil]

All fixed


Link is available below, and also now available in my previous post that generated page not found.

Fighters & Scholars.rar

[Novelty]

My printer is probably gonna "chop off" the edges of the tiles that you have there.  I suspect it might occur for others as well.  Is there anyway to reduce it to about 3 and a half tiles across?

I haven't had the time to read the rules yet, but will get to it once I have the spare time...

[edmil]

Thanks Novelty,

I will adjust the number of tiles on the pages so that printing will not be a hassle for anyone.

Were the images any improvement on what I last sent through?

Hopefully the rules will be easier to read and yes there is still a lot of white space. I can't seem to get away from my training

[Novelty]

The images look about the same.  My personal preference would be to have a border around the tiles, but I don't think that's abosolutely necessary.  The "artifacts" (patches of white) around your graphics could also be cleaned up better, but again those are on the tokens, so again, there's no need to redo it.

Here's some proofreading (although I'm not doing that in full) and some further comments for the rules.

Page 1: (Proofreading) Full-stop missing at the end of this statement "This expansion should be compatible with all future expansions/variants as the additional rules are independent of any other game play" and footnotes 1, 3 and 4.

Page 2: (Comment) I don't suppose you can rearrange the tiles to reduce the whitespace?

Page 2: (Proofreading) Text for Outcome Tiles is not justified.

Page 2: (Proofreading) Hyphens missing in double-sided and single-sided in the first sentence of Outcome Tiles.

Page 2: (Proofreading) Hyphens missing in double-sided (twice) in the first sentence and title of Double-sided Level Token.

Page 3: (Proofreading) Full-stop missing in the first sentence of Preparation.

Page 3: (Comment) Would be nice if the Ampersands in the 2nd paragraph of Preparation be replaced with the word "and".

Page 3: (Proofreading) Hyphens missing in double-sided and single-sided in the third paragraph of Preparation.

Page 3: (Proofreading) Full-stop missing in a number of sentences in Terminology.

Page 3: (Comment) I think you just redefined "follower" to something slightly different than what HiG/RGG has defined it.  Your defination of follower includes only those that are in play, whereas HiG/RGG does not differentiate between in-play and out-of-play (e.g. in hand).  Instead of confusing the issue, perhaps it is better to remove this defination and change all occurance of "follower" to "followers in play" in the rest of the rules.  Actually, it would also be good to say that levelled followers are only for those in play in the terminology.

Page 3: (Comment) You used the word "meeple" without defining it.  HiG/RGG does not use that term in their rules since it's not a proper word (it's a made up word).  They use the term "follower" or "builder" "pig" "barn" etc.

Page 3: (Proofreading) Full-stop missing after italicised text in Terminology, The Training Tiles, etc.

Page 4: (Proofreading) The article "a" is missing after the first word in the question "Can follower such as e.g. a wagon, a ship, or similar be levelled up?" (Q&A section).

Page 4: (Proofreading) First paragraph of The Training Tiles: 12 should be Twelve, Shield should be shield, There should be there.

Page 4: (Comment) What are "play options"?  It sounds to me like something on broadway   I think the word "play" is redundant there and may be removed (which will remove the confusion as well).  Actually there are more than 4 options, since you can also do stuff not related to the training tile (e.g. move the fairly), so perhaps "4 more options" would be better.

Page 5 and beyond: (Proofreading) The X-sided stuff is missing the hyphen in most of the document.  I'm too lazy to type out every single occurance of it.  A search and replace will probably fix it.

General: (Comment)  The rules state that actions can be done instead or placing a follower or X or Y or Z.  What would happen if HiG/RGG decides to add more actions?  I think you need a catchphrase that says "instead of deploying a follower or any other actions that is normally carried out instead of deploying a follower" or something like that.

Page 5 and beyond: (Comment) I would change all those 1st, 2nd and 3rd to First, Second and Third.

Page 5: (Proofreading) The last sentence has "are is still" which is in conflict with each other.

Page 6: (Comment) "Training play" - is that like a rehearsal for a play?  I would just title the section as "Example of Training".

Page 6: (Proofreading) Full-stops missing in the Example of a training play section.

Page 6: (Proofreading) Punctuation missing before the word therefore in the first sentence of scoring.

Page 6: (Comment) I would use the word "one/an additional" and "two additional" instead of +1 and +2.  I would also change the word "count" to "considered to be" or something similar.

Page 6: (Comment) Third bullet point = The bonus 5 points are added after the feature has been scored in the usual manner.  Added to where?  The scored feature?  But that is already scored... I think you mean "awarded" instead.

Page 6: (Comment) Fourth bullet point might need a e.g. if there are 2 training tiles on a scored road, then the player who completed the road scores 10 points, 5 for each of the training tiles.

Page 6: (Comment) Fifth bullet point definately needs an example because I have no idea what it means.

Page 6: (Comment) "Base Count" in the first answer looks funny and reminds me of baseball

Page 6: (Comment) "the majority" for a big follower/mayor reads weirdly, since majorities are determined for features, not followers.  Might have to rephrase the question to be "How many followers is X considered to be during scoring?".

Page 7: (Question) I thought a follower out of play cannot have a training level.  I've come to page 7 and just realised that this is not the case.  This is confusing.

Page 7: (Question) What's the difference between "Level 0", Untrained and "In Training"?  While reading through the rules, I thought that.
Originally, all meeples are untrained.
If they are chosen for training and fail, then they get "Level 0, in training" (pg 5)
That's what the Training rules say to me, unless I have interpreted them wrongly.

Page 7: (Question) Why the arbitary 5 tiles limit?  I would suggest getting rid of retaining the level after scoring to reduce keeping track of all the nitty gritty.  It would be nice and would simplify playing if the statement "All meeples not in play does not have a level or the "in training" status." were true.

Page 8: (Proofreading) First sentence: Comma required after the word occurs, full-stop required after etc.

Page 8: (Proofreading) Full-stops required for a number of sentences in Confrontation or Conflict -- wining.

Page 8: (Proofreading) The partial sentence "If using a dice then for" requires a comma between dice and then.

Page 8: (Proofreading) First answer in the Q&A has the phrase "dragon card".  No such thing exist.  The dragon comes into play when a tile with a volcano is drawn and played, and moves when the tile with the dragon icon is drawn and played.

Page 8: (Comment) The phrase "mid move" may be interpreted as moving between tiles, i.e. while the dragon is not on a tile.  And while it is not on a tile, it can't arrive anywhere... I would suggest changing it to "in the middle of moving 6 tiles after a tile with the dragon icon has been played".

General: (Comment) RiG uses the term "player's supply" instead of "player's stock".

Page 9: (Proofreading) Scoring at End of Game would read better as Scoring at the End of the Game

Page 9: (Proofreading) Comma required between the words farm and uncompleted in the second sentence of Scoring at End of Game.

Page 9: (Comment) I don't understand footnote 8.  I think it might be better to make the last sentence of the footnote first.

Phew, that was long.  I can better understand the rules.  It's looking better, but you might want to proofread the document before posting it

[edmil]

Thanks heaps Novelty,

wow that was some proof reading.

Are you Teacher/editor/professor? 

I only gave the document a cursory proof reading so thanks for the detail.  I will go through and amend.

Some of the terminology I have picked up through reading other rules, but I figure it is better to stick with the official language so will amend.
Some of the language I think is a preference but again I am happy to amend as the document is for others to read and not me and anything to avoid confusion will help.

Briefly.
The 5 tile limit retention limit was to allow those players who had a small city closed on them to at least get a bit of value
from the trained follower.

However rethinking this maybe if a player starts training too early during the construction of a city they deserve to waste training attempts if a player closes their city

That said I can just see someone coming up with the suggestion  later time so maybe instead of trashing the idea straight off I retain it in the rules as a variants, like what I have done with the dice.

I must admit when we have played we usually don't start training immediately however there has been an occasion when we have been working to build into an opponents city and have started training early to ensure a majority will be attained once the cities are joined.

Will go through your post in more detail over the next day or two

Thanks again

[Novelty]

Well, I'm the only person currently reading through the rules to make sure they are up to scratch before I make them available for public upload.  I don't think anyone else has the time.  I'm not in the teaching profession nor am I an editor of any sort.  I was just pointing out the (mostly) punctuation mistakes as I read the document.

Do think about making the fact that followers out of play loses all levels and in training status.  If you are worried that other players may be nasty by closing off cities or road (or forest or river, if playing by those respective rules) with a trained follower early, how about updating the rules that if a city or road (or forest or river) is completed by someone else (not the player who has the levelled follower on the city or road (or forest or river)) and that city or road (or forest or river) is 3 or less tiles, then the player gets to choose either to:
1. score as usual and return the follower to hand.  Follower loses all levels.
2. score and then move the level 1 or 2 follower to another incomplete and unoccupied feature of the same type anywhere in play, but the follower drops down a level.

This way, one doesn't have to "remember" whether any of their followers in hand (or held captive by another player) has a level or an in training status.  I dropped the tile requirement to 3 because I think 5 is a bit too much/big for a "small" city or road (or forest or river).

[edmil]

Version 3.1 of Fighters & scholars now uploaded. Click on link below.


Fighters & Scholars v3.1.zip

I have gone through the rules document and corrected all punctuation and grammar items as identified by Novelty.
Changes made to some of the language.

All modifications made and rules adjusted. 
There is no longer the 5 tile retention rule. Alternative as provided by Novelty has been included.

Tile pdf files have been amended to ensure that no tiles will be cut off when printing.

enjoy

[Novelty]

Thanks Eric.  I don't think I have the time this weekend to do more than have a cursory glance at these.  I'll get back to you here with comments when I have more time.  Thanks for all the hard work you've put into this.

[Novelty]

Oooh, you gave us the doc file.  Here's my proposed v3.2.  I took out the section about followers being killed and removed retaining the level and the tower tiles being worth 2 since that is redundant.  Most of the other changes are small things like including the apostrophe in player's and commas and full-stops where required.  Have a read through and let me know if it's good enough for you.  If it is, I'll include it back with the tiles and put it on the public download section.  Well done!

[edmil]

Yup, Good enough for me.

Thanks for the editing you've put in.

Will be good to see it out there finally.

[Novelty]

Yay!  Merit point for you, E.  It's now up on Public Downloads.