The Catacombs

[Whaleyland]

After reading through Jabberwocky's new ideas for using the blank tiles, one option specifically called to me: Catacombs! Catacombs are found throughout France in its medieval abbeys, cloisters, cathedrals, and beneath the larger cities. I think an fan expansion that included Catacomb tiles would be awesome and bring Carcassonne into a new direction: dead meeples/followers! The only question is: how does this get accomplished?

Working within the bounds of Carcassonne makes it slightly more difficult to get the "below ground feel" of a catacomb, so what I propose is that mausoleums be used conceptually. Basically, players can "kill" their meeples/followers by placing them in a catacomb, which is a new type of terrain feature yet to be created. In all aspects, they work in the same manner as a castle except the tiles are darker and more deathly, and perhaps more underground. I truly am not proficient at creating tiles (I have tried) so if anyone finds this expansion interesting, please feel free to help out *cough*Novelty*cough*. Catacombs house the dead, which means any meeple placed in a catacomb cannot come return when/if the catacomb is completed. That being said, the catacomb will be worth significantly more than anything else, except large farms. I am think they should be worth 4/space, regardless of if the catacomb is completed (I mean, are catacombs ever really completed?).

The major plus of this expansion is that there are few other rules that need to be changed except:
* Once a follower is placed in a catacomb, that follower can not be removed from the board until the end of the game.
* Any follower placed on a catacomb tile does not collect points until the end of the game, even if the catacomb is completed.
* When a player places a clositer, cathedral, or abbey, instead of placing a follower on the tile, they may place a follower in any unclaimed catacomb.
* A player may not place a builder, pig, wagon, or barn in the catacombs.
* A mayor may be placed on a catacomb tile; its majority is determined by the number of skulls (or something similar) in the catacomb.

If anyone thinks this has prospects, please help me out. I have little resources to help make the tiles nor much artistic proficiency in creating them. Having presented the idea, I am perfectly fine if someone wants to take it over to produce/publish it. I just think adding the element of death into the game makes it slightly more morbid while not taking much away from the game. Cheers!

[Scott]

*cough*Novelty*cough*

[Novelty]

*cough*Novelty*cough*

Yes, I know I still have Scott's Mountains to develop this year as I promised him.  Don't expect it soon (like within the next month or 2) though - I want to finish off Dragon Hunters and then start work on the difficult Fairy tales expansions before moving on to anything new.

However, it sounds like a great idea to have catacombs.  I don't see them as landscape features though (because that would mean 100 tiles just to even make it feasilbe), I do see them more like an abbey or cathedral or something similar.  That's just how I see them.

[Joff]

I'm not sure how this will work in practice, but here is a very draft (very rough) image to give you a quick idea:


This would work as a sub game within Carcassonne. Example: If a Red player lays the above Catacomb tile, he can deploy a follower instead of MTW to the catacomb. Each catacomb will score 4 points, but if another catacomb tile is adjoined to the tile (at the top) a red follower may claim that catacomb also (giving 8 points). The Red player may claim every catacomb that he can reach via doorways (it is not necessary to have a red skull adjoining to a red skull to enable the red player to claim). His follower cannot be taken back until game end, but he may place as many followers into the catacombs as he wishes. I envision 4,3,2 and 1 way tiles. Catacombs may be completed but never scored until game end.

Comments? Suggestions?

[Novelty]

skulls! 

[meepleater]

However, it sounds like a great idea to have catacombs.  I don't see them as landscape features though (because that would mean 100 tiles just to even make it feasilbe), I do see them more like an abbey or cathedral or something similar.  That's just how I see them.

Maybe make them playable inside cities, some cities have catacombs in them, which may extent to some edges of the cities. These may join up to another catacomb piece, or just an ordinary city piece.. it's kinda hard to explain...

[Joff]

Allow me to explain a bit more.

This idea came about following the blank tile idea by Jabberwocky and then Whaleyland’s further posting regarding catacombs. This uses a separate idea that I was working on. This idea was a spin-off type game based on the tile laying mechanic of Carcassonne, but maze based for scoring. I thought that one might be able to change it slightly and incorporate it as the catacombs expansion idea, or even leave it as a separate stand alone spin-off game (or both ). The original game idea used coloured archway doors on one edge of the tile, but I have incorporated a skull to fit the theme and mocked up a draft tile idea (above post (Edit: and now below)) to resemble a catacomb chamber.

As a spin-off game it would probably be better suited to 4 colours (4 players) only, as was my original idea. My original version used the colours Orange, Purple, Brown and Pink, which provided a use for the Orange, Brown, Purple and Pink meeples that you can purchase easily. For using with Carcassonne it would necessitate 6 colours (6 players) to be used, which might increase tile requirements.

Another option in my original was to have a passageway with no ‘door’ (which would be no skull in this expansion/spin-off), allowing any player to use the passage to gain access into a new chamber regardless of that players colour. Yet another idea (from my original) was to have counters that were limited in number to each player, but allowed the blocking of a route or the opening of the route depending on the colour of the counter used; black for blocking, white for opening (you could not open a previously blocked route; i.e. no double stacking of counters allowed, and once placed a counter could not be retrieved).

The starting tile of the original was a four way tile, all with unlocked (no skull) doors.

I have drafted up very basic rules (not our normal format) for this expansion and/or spin off. Comments and suggestions are welcome as always.

The Catacombs

Edit: Just to give you an idea, these are the basic configurations of the tiles (the colours of the skulls change). Artwork is poor, I know.

[Joff]

Here is a mock up of the latest design:



Edit: The skull might need to be smaller.

[Novelty]

That looks more like dungeons than catacombs.  Add a couple of rats and it will look like sewers   I like the graphic though, but I'm not sure if the game is along the lines of what Whaleyland and Jabberwocky had intended for their catacomb tiles.  Sorry Joff, but I'd like to hear Whaleyland's comments on whether this satisfies his idea, or if he still would like to pursue with his original idea...

[Joff]

That looks more like dungeons than catacombs.  Add a couple of rats and it will look like sewers   I like the graphic though, but I'm not sure if the game is along the lines of what Whaleyland and Jabberwocky had intended for their catacomb tiles.  Sorry Joff, but I'd like to hear Whaleyland's comments on whether this satisfies his idea, or if he still would like to pursue with his original idea...

To be quite honest, I am persuing this anyway (now that i've posted it publicly) as the intention originally was a a seperate spin off type game. Whether I call it catacombs, dungeons or sewers is beside the point.

Once we hear from Jabberwocky and Whaleyland, I will begin a seperate thread for it. It is not a problem if this dosen't fit their idea, I was developing it anyway (it is just the theme that would fit).

However, any comments will be welcome, but PM them to me so as not to lock this thread up. Thanks.

[Whaleyland]

Sorry, I have been following some of the discussions but (sadly) forgot my own of a week ago. I have been traveling a lot, so give me a break. I like your idea, Joff, as it is somewhat what I originally wanted before I outlined my idea here. I wasn't sure how well a side-game would work so tried instead to incorporate it into the actual Carcassonne field of play. Reviewing your idea, I think that making a side game of sorts is very interesting and a fun use for meeples. Perhaps this may work as a place to send killed followers that found some unthoughtof demise in the land of the living. Overall, I think you should go with it, but I think it works better perhaps as a dungeons or a land-of-the-dead idea than Catacombs. I still want to work with Catacombs, but I just haven't had the time to work on tiles or gameplay concepts.

My idea is more of in-game than side-game and focuses on long-term investments of followers. I want it to emphasize the deadness of them being in the catacombs, but the (spiritual?) power they retain in those places even in the afterlife. I guess that means I am focusing on either noble/royal/clerical deceased or the concept that the aristocratic meeples can afford burial chambers that may expand. A different idea of making cemeteries or simple one-tile crypts is not out of my mind either. I just have to see where it may develop. I still wish for help with the tiles, if anyone wants to, but I am a perfectionist and will probably seek to make something very Carcassonne-y.

Keep up the good work, Joff, on your expansion. I think it could be quite fun and interesting. Side-games can sometimes prove to be the most heated races in a game (see Risk Godstorm).

[Novelty]

OK, I have thought about this.  What you/Whaley wants are the following:

1. Underground connective catacombs (with doors?)
2. Once a meeple is placed, it is not removed (like farmers) until the end of the game
3. Links to Abbeys, Cloisters, Cathedrals and Shrines

My ideas:
1. We have a tile where the edges are either farms or farm/roads.  Maybe even cities, but those would be rare and just one edge.  In the middle, we'll have a "cut out" to show the catacombs underground.

Tiles are placed in the normal carcassonne way, depending on the "above ground" edge - those have to connect to the existing features.

The "cut out" will show the catacomb underground, and if there are any doors on the walls.  I have sketched a very quick (and ugly) concept tile to show how I think it should look - obviously the graphics will be sharpened to something more acceptable if this is what is required.

2. Catacombs are scored at the end of the game as follows:
Note: "Next to" means one tile to the top, bottom, left or right, but not diagonally
Meeple in catacomb next to cloister, abbey, cathedral or shrine = 3 points
Meeple in catacomb next to cloister, abbey, cathedral or shrine, with a door leading to those features = 5 points.  (The door gives an extra 2 points.)
Meeple in catacomb next to another catacomb = 4 points
Meeple in catacomb next to another catacomb with a door (but no door on the other side) = 6 points
Meeple in catacomb next to another catacomb with doors on both sides = 10 points

This scores quite a bit, but not as much as farms.  Also, it encourages completion of the cloister and the shrine, as well as encouraging the catacombs to be "clustered" together for more points.

Towers cannot remove the catacomb meeples, but I think dragons should be able to "eat" those meeples and remove them from play.  Scratch that, dragons should also not be able to affect the catacomb meeples, but there should be some way to dispose of the body (for those who like things to be griefy).

3. Scoring depends on 3 out of those 4 features.  Perhaps if a player completes a city with a cathedral, they then get to place a meeple in a (empty or otherwise) catacomb.  Other considerations is that when a player plays the abbey tile, they get to have a free go and place a meeple in a (empty or otherwise) catacomb.

Well, those are rough ideas, but I think they are workable and will probably be interesting.  It'll need some playtesting and probably a bit of tweaking.

[Whaleyland]

Novelty, I like the direction you are going with the tile, but perhaps they could all have chambers and passages instead of just a room. It kind of looks more like a 3D box that has been flattened, then blurred into the grass. I would prefer something more like the grass maybe looking more ripped up in that spot and the chamber looking more like it is still going in all directions underground. Just a thought.

[Novelty]

I'll have to visualise how that would look before I can draw it, and currently I can't visualise what you're talking about   If anyone has any good examples from elsewhere, I would appreciate it.

The thing about Carc tiles is that the top-down perspective makes drawing anything that's underground a lot difficult...

Edit: I just had an idea about how the graphics could work.  I'll do a mock-up when I next have the time to show.  I'm glad I didn't spend too much time on the first mock-up

[Tobias]

Do not forget who thought of it first! http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=272.msg2539#msg2539