The Jester and the Minstrel

[Scott]

Allowing the jester and/or minstrel to teleport doesn't feel right to me somehow. I would need to hear some sort of argument why it is better or needs to be that way.

Having a minstrel for each player is something I considered, with points scored by the minstrel going to the owning player. This would be slightly more realistic, but I couldn't figure out all the details of how movement would work. I knew that moving your minstrel would take place as an alternative during the "move the wood" stage, but how would it be moved? Anything I can think of either doesn't seem fair or sounds boring.

Having just one minstrel feels more interesting to me from a gameplay standpoint. Everybody is competing to move the minstrel and scores some bonus points.

[Joff]

My idea was intended for using the Catapult tiles and giving them a realistic use, other than the rubbish way they are being used now.  I can't think of any other way for using them, and the jesters/minstrels idea fit them perfectly thematically! The catapult tiles can't really be used in any other way. Imagine using them as yet another cloister type!

Allowing the jester and/or minstrel to teleport doesn't feel right to me somehow.

I don't think it matters if the jesters/minstrels 'teleport'. 'Teleporting' from Carcassonne City, or via a 'Magic Portal' does not 'feel' right either, they are just the rules.

I was really coming from the standpoint of using those Catapult tiles for something interesting. The Fair theme would certainly fit jesters/minstrels.

I would need to hear some sort of argument why it is better or needs to be that way.

So, tell me, why would it be better if the jester/minstrel be moved rather than 'teleported'?

[Joff]

Just a quick idea:

When moved (either by 'teleport' to a Fair tile or by some sort of 'dragon' movement (not necessarily 6 spaces), wherever the Jester/Minstrel ends up, he 'captures' the attention of the meeples within a 'cloister type' scoring range. The meeples in the area do not get removed, just distracted from their normal duties while the Jester/Minstrel is in the area. Once he has moved on, normal duties resume. The theme being is that the occupiers have gone to watch the Jester/Minstrel perform for them.



The Blue Knight and the Yellow Monk have been 'sidetracked' by the travelling Jester/Minstrel. While he is in the vicinity (the 8 tiles surrounding him) the Blue Knight and Yellow Monk lose any scoring capabilities they might have (i.e. if the Cloister gets finished, the Yellow Monk cannot score for it, similarly, if the city gets finished while the Jester/Minstrel is in the vicinity, the Blue Knight loses his control of the city). Perhaps, a Minstrel could impose a bonus on the followers in the area, and the Jester a penalty, as was suggested at the beginning of this thread. BTW, the Jester/Minstrel piece is a White follower from the game Carc: The City. Like I said, this can be either by the use of the Fair tile (although this might present a few difficulties using this mechanism), or with a 'dragon' type movement.

Just a thought.

[Novelty]

I think having just one for the whole game would be more interesting than one per player.  And Scott, you might want to consider a second meeple of either type similar to Dual Dragon if a lot of expansions are used.

[Joff]

This might not be that coherent, but I present what I noted down today. It utilises the Jester/Minstrel attention capturing range employed in my previous post.

THEME AND IDEA:

A follower can have their attention captured by either the Jester or the Minstrel. A Jester awards mesmerised followers with a penalty, while the Minstrel awards them with a bonus. Use of the Fair tile fits the theme nicely and provides a better use that what they represent now.

SCORING:

A follower who has had his attention captured:

If the Jester is within the vicinity of a follower when his feature is completed then:

*Any follower is scored at minus one strength (i.e. a regular follower has a strength of zero, a big follower has the strength of one, a wagon the strength of zero, a mayor the strength of all pennants minus one).
This means that if a player has a regular follower deployed as a monk in a cloister, the Monk will not score for the cloister should the Jester be within the vicinity, but will score the cloister if the Monk is a big follower.

If the Minstrel is within the vicinity of a follower when his feature is completed then:

*Any follower is scored at plus one strength (i.e. a regular follower has a strength of two, a big follower has the strength of three, a wagon a strength of two, a mayor the strength of all pennants plus one). This means that if a player has a regular follower deployed as a Knight in a city, the knight will be worth the strength of two while the Minstrel is within the vicinity. A Monk receives a bonus of 9 points for a completed cloister. Something like that.

A Jester/Minstrel only confers a penalty/bonus when scoring for the feature. A follower cannot be joined directly to a city where a follower has had their attention captured (i.e. the Jester has captured the attention of a Green Knight occupying a city. Although the Green Knight is worth zero while the Jester is in the vicinity this is only when scoring the feature concerned and so this does not lose him the actual ‘control’ of the city until scoring takes place, therefore a Blue follower will not be able to connect directly into the city).

The vicinity of the Jester/Minstrel is based on a cloister type area.
That is, the surrounding 8 tiles. A Jester/Minstrel must not share a tile already occupied by another follower (including builders and pigs, but not barns). If you allow sharing then the Jester/Minstrel’s vicinity is all 9 tiles. The Jester/Minstrel cannot be eaten by the dragon, captured by a Tower, seduced by a princess, or deployed to Carcassonne City as they are both neutral figures and not followers.

USING THE FAIR TILE:

My original idea was to use the Fair tile as a type of ‘teleport’ system (from one Fair tile to another Fair tile) in the same way as Magic Portals and Carcassonne City is used, and indeed how the volcano tile is used for the dragon. There is a better use for the Fair tile: the Fair tile might work the same way as the ‘dragon tile’ (in P&D) that triggers the Jester/Minstrel movement. A Fair tile would work as this, when playing a game of mega-Carcasonne, a Fair tile will be drawn approximately every 20 tiles. This gives plenty of scope for the playing of such a tile. If a Fair tile is drawn but the Jester/Minstrel is not in play then it is left to one side (the player drawing a replacement). They are returned to the pool once the Jester/Minstrel is in play. Perhaps both Jester and Minstrel could both move to the same place at the start.

MOVEMENT:

Perhaps when laying a Fair tile, this will invoke the Jester/Minstrel movement (this is essentially the 'dragon' movement for the Jester and Minstrel. The movement consists of 6 spaces for the Jester and then 6 spaces for the Minstrel. Each player takes a turn at moving the Jester and Minstrel.

The Jester moves 6 spaces and then the Minstrel moves 6 spaces, each player taking a turn to move the Jester/Minstrel 1 tile. A Jester/Minstrel moves horizontally and vertically but must not double-back on itself each Jester/Minstrel movement.

OR

The Jester moves 6 spaces and then the Minstrel moves 6 spaces, each player taking a turn to move the Jester/Minstrel. A Jester/Minstrel moves diagonally but must not double-back on itself each Jester/Minstrel movement.

A player may also choose to swap the Jester/Minstrel instead of ‘moving the wood’.

A Jester/Minstrel must NOT occupy the same tile (perhaps not even entering each others vicinity (see Difficulties section below).

DIFFICULTIES:

The remaining difficulty will be how to get the Jester/Minstrel onto the playing area in the first place. Perhaps the Jester could be placed within the first completed city and Minstrel on first completed road? Is there a way to use those 2 blank tiles from CS&C to place the Jester/Minstrel?

What happens when a follower is in the same vicinity as a Jester AND a Minstrel? Two solutions: I would propose that the Jester/Minstrel in this case cancel each other out and do not affect this follower concerned or solve this problem completely by not allowing the Jester/Minstrel to wander into each others territory.

Maybe you can use just the Jester OR Minstrel in this way for either a bonus or penalty?

Some of these ideas might be able to be utilised. Just sharing some thoughts.

[Scott]

Teleporting didn't feel right because I was originally picturing a wandering minstrel.

I like the range idea, and I think you've got the rules mostly finished. I think you should run with it and polish this off. I don't need to be the one that finishes this.

Would it be too confusing if the jester and minstrel were allowed to occupy the same tile only if it is a fair tile? That would alleviate the problem at the beginning.

I personally prefer horizontal/vertical movement for the jester/minstrel. With diagonal movement, it is possible for the jester/minstrel to cover more ground.

If it is allowed to swap the jester/minstrel, will the jester ever give a penalty? Anytime I complete a feature with the jester nearby, I can always swap him with the minstrel between placing the tile and scoring.

[Joff]

If it is allowed to swap the jester/minstrel, will the jester ever give a penalty? Anytime I complete a feature with the jester nearby, I can always swap him with the minstrel between placing the tile and scoring.

Good point

[Joff]

Would it be too confusing if the jester and minstrel were allowed to occupy the same tile only if it is a fair tile? That would alleviate the problem at the beginning.

It depends on how you calculate the scoring part. If we were to say that a Jester must not enter the vacinity of the Minstrel (and vice-versa) then it definately poses a problem, but if we allow that the Jester and Minstrel cancel each other out when both are in the vacinity of a follower and do not affect this follower, then of course they can share a tile. However, I do like the idea of allowing the sharing of the Fair tile only for Jester and Minstrel.

A problem the 'cancelling out' poses is "Why would anyone ever split the Minstrel and Jester up? Why not keep them together so they can't possibly affect any players scoring?

[Scott]

Good point. Would introducing them at separate times fix this?

[Joff]

Yes, this is what I was thinking... the problem is... how?

[Whaleyland]

The Jester is introduced when the first castle is completed. The Minstrel when the first road is completed. The two figures begin the game on the tile that completed the feature (Jester on the last castle piece; Minstrel on the last road piece). That makes it so they will probably begin at two different places and also be separated from each other. You could add the clause that if a single tile completes both features, then the player may choose which is placed first and the other figure comes out when the second feature is completed.

[Joff]

DIFFICULTIES:

The remaining difficulty will be how to get the Jester/Minstrel onto the playing area in the first place. Perhaps the Jester could be placed within the first completed city and Minstrel on first completed road? Is there a way to use those 2 blank tiles from CS&C to place the Jester/Minstrel?

What happens when a follower is in the same vicinity as a Jester AND a Minstrel? Two solutions: I would propose that the Jester/Minstrel in this case cancel each other out and do not affect this follower concerned or solve this problem completely by not allowing the Jester/Minstrel to wander into each others territory.

The Jester is introduced when the first castle is completed. The Minstrel when the first road is completed. The two figures begin the game on the tile that completed the feature (Jester on the last castle piece; Minstrel on the last road piece). That makes it so they will probably begin at two different places and also be separated from each other. You could add the clause that if a single tile completes both features, then the player may choose which is placed first and the other figure comes out when the second feature is completed.

I had suggested this but it is not without its difficulties. It depends on whether the Jester can enter the vicinity (or 'attention' capturing area) of the Minstrel (or VV). Assuming they are not allowed to enter each others area, what happens if a player completes the first city and lays the Jester and then another player completes the first road that is within the vicinity of the Jester? The Minstrel could not be placed. Maybe it would then be on the 2nd completed road (and so on until the Minstrel is also in play)?

If sharing the vicinity is allowed then it does raise the question in my previous post, "Why would anyone ever split the Minstrel and Jester up? Why not keep them together so they can't possibly affect any players scoring?"

I do think that the easiest way is by not allowing the Jester/Minstrel to wander into each others 'attention' capturing area. That way they are forced to seperate and do start to affect scoring. But that throws up the original difficulty of how to get them into play in the first place.

What would happen when a fair tile is drawn and only one of the pieces is in play? Do you just move the piece in play until the other is added, or should you wait until both pieces are in play?

[mathguy89]

What would happen when a fair tile is drawn and only one of the pieces is in play? Do you just move the piece in play until the other is added, or should you wait until both pieces are in play?

My opinion on this would be to set the fair tile aside, just like the dragon tiles before a volcano from P&D.  Then once both pieces are in play, simply reshuffle the tiles.  Though this implies having the bag and not the tower, in which case you have the same issues as P&D.

[Novelty]

Could someone summarise for me what has been decided so far please?  I'm a bit confused as to what's happening here   Thanks

[Joff]

OVERVIEW OF THE JESTER AND THE MINSTREL SO FAR:

There is a Jester and a Minstrel piece. Two pieces. They are not followers, they are neutral.

The Jester imposes a penalty, the Minstrel a bonus.

Both pieces are moved on the tiles, in the same way as a dragon would move. At present, when they move, they will both have a 6 tile movement. Jester moving first (each player moving him one space horizontally/vertically) until he has moved 6 spaces and then the Minstrel moves in the same manner (horizontally/vertically). A piece may not backtrack on itself (same as the dragon) while moving.

When the Jester or Minstrel is capturing the attention of any followers in the area (a cloister type surrounding) he imposes his penalty/bonus on them. The followers are not physically removed from the board.

Here is an example of the Jester/Minstrels attention capturing area:


(forget the Fair tile, it can be any tile and the white piece could be either Jester or Minstrel (of course, when finalised, there would be 2 distinguishable pieces for each))
The Blue Knight and the Yellow Monk have had their attention captured by the Minstrel/Jester. The Jester imposes a penalty on these followers, the Minstrel a bonus.

At present the penalty/bonus is:

PENALTY:
*Any follower is scored at minus one strength (i.e. a regular follower has a strength of zero, a big follower has the strength of one, a wagon the strength of zero, a mayor the strength of all pennants minus one). This does not include Farmers; there is NO effect to farmers.
This means that if a player has a regular follower deployed as a Monk in a cloister, the Monk will not score for the cloister should the Jester be within the vicinity, but will score the cloister if the Monk is a big follower.

BONUS:
*Any follower is scored at plus one strength (i.e. a regular follower has a strength of two, a big follower has the strength of three, a wagon a strength of two, a mayor the strength of all pennants plus one). This does not include Farmers; there is NO effect to farmers.
This means that if a player has a regular follower deployed as a Knight in a city, the knight will be worth the strength of two while the Minstrel is within the vicinity. A Monk receives a bonus of 9 points for a completed cloister.

It is the drawing of a fair tile that triggers the movement of the pieces by the players (the same way as the dragon tile NOT the Volcano tile).

All is well (except for ironing out exactly what the penalty/bonus should be), except for two vital difficulties that need to be overcome (the third one is not 'vital', but needs to be decided upon):

1. How do you bring the Jester/Minstrel onto the board in the first place? (i'm assuming that this expansion/variant will only require 'The Catapult' (and 2 pieces, perhaps even 2 of the catapult counters) and no extra tiles)

2. Can the Jester/Minstrel wander into each others attention capturing vacinity, and if so, what happens to followers caught by both the Jester and the Minstrel?

3. Can the Jester/Minstrel move onto a tile occupied by a follower? (The dragon can, of course, but the dragon clears the tile concerned; the Jester/Minstrel would just capture the followers attention if this happened).

Edit: Spelling