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Author Topic: The Jester and the Minstrel  (Read 61750 times)
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Scott
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« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2008, 07:03:29 pm »

I think they should not be allowed to enter each other's area. I don't mind if their areas overlap once in a while and cancel each other out.
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Joff
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« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2008, 03:04:55 am »

New update to these rules, almost there: 0.4 draft rules

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mathguy89
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« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2008, 03:15:50 am »

Joff - I was reading the updated rules, and I like what I'm seeing.  Things seem to be well explained and clear (and this comes at 1 am local time for me after being up most of the day, so I think things are good.)
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Joff
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« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2008, 05:01:43 am »

Thanks. As usual, if there are any problems or questions that I haven't though of, post them here and I can update the rules accordingly.

How clear is the section that explains what happens when the Jester and the Minstrel's range overlaps one anothers? This is the only part that might need a rewrite!
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Novelty
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« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2008, 07:08:07 am »

Welcome back Joff.  You asked for comments...

Comments:
"The Jester and the minstrel requires a copy of the Catapult large expansion"
As opposed to a copy of the Catapult small or medium expansion???  I don't think the word "large" is required in that sentence.  I would rephrase it as "The Jester and Minstrel can only be played if Carcassonne: Catapult is used." or something like that.

Under Preparation "For those using the River or River II,..."
Wouldn't it be better if it's "When playing with either or both of the River and River II expansions,..." or something like that?

"If you are using The Count of Carcassonne..."
How about "If the Count of Carcassonne is being used,..." to get rid of the "you" in the sentence which is correct if it's spoken, but iffy when written.

Footnote 6 is not justified.

Instead of using Player1, 2, 3, etc. How about using Red, Green, Yellow, etc.?

"...fall within his range..." The word fall would be hard to be interpret by a person whose English is not their first language.  Also, it's a bit verbose to talk about the range and then describe the range.  I would get rid of the range and just say "...is either on the same square as the jester/minstrel or on any one of the eight adjacent squares..."

"When the Jester is capturing the attention of any followers in the area he imposes a penalty on them."  That is just bad written English.  "When the Jester captures the attention of a follower, a penalty is imposed on the follower." would be better.  Ditto for the minstrel sentence.

"Here is an example of the Jester’s attention capturing area:" might be better as "The example below shows the tiles on which a Jester will capture the attention of any followers, if the followers are on these tiles" or something similar.  Ditto for the minstrel sentence.

I can see at least 3 different words used to describe the 9 tile area: "Range" "Capturing Area" "Vicinity".  It is confusing.  Please pick one and stick to it?  Pretty please?

The penalty and bonus sections would probably need a revision based on the above.  Also note that you are describing the Knight, Thief, Monk etc. so it's best to have them first, i.e. "If a Knight is in the range/vicinity/capturing area of the Jester..."

How about a rule stating that except for the beginning, the jester and minstrel must always be 2 tiles away from each other, or is that not feasible?

Oooh, and please don't kill me for the large amount of comments...
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Joff
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« Reply #50 on: November 26, 2008, 07:25:25 am »

How about a rule stating that except for the beginning, the jester and minstrel must always be 2 tiles away from each other, or is that not feasible?

Do you mean 2 tiles between them (i.e. Jester, tile, tile, Minstrel)?
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Novelty
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« Reply #51 on: November 26, 2008, 08:56:16 am »

Yeah, that's what I meant.  Sorry for not phrasing it properly especially after an entire post where I was pointing out bad grammar Sad
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Joff
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« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2008, 03:02:52 am »

New update: 0.5 draft rules

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Novelty
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« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2008, 10:46:30 am »

That looks better.  Good job Joff.

Just curious though, how do the 2 new meeples interact with a few other pieces?  Can the dragon remove either of them? Does the tower capture them?  Do their bonus/penalty apply to wagons on a road or in a cloister/shrine and barns?  Does the pig get a bonus or penalty from them?

The other thing that I don't see explained is: Do you still use the rules from the Catapult when playing with this?

How do they interact with other fan made expansions?  Does this carry over into the Jousting majority of a city?  The stocks?  Woodsmen?  Fishermen?  Gold Miner?
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Joff
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« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2008, 05:48:20 pm »

That looks better.  Good job Joff.

Thanks to you Smiley

I have always liked the idea that the Jester should not be allowed into the capture area of the Minstrel, but I am unsure how to overcome it regarding the vanilla Carc starting tile. If you say that the Jester must be at least 2 tiles away from the Minstrel except at the beginning, this becomes confusing simply because they are allowed to start on the same tile. It would be better to place them differently right from the outset (like the River tile startup and the Count startup positions). However, one thing that my proposal does is give an opportunity to have them moved to a new starting position when they overlap each others attention capturing area (like playing a Volcano tile in P&D), but this seems clumsy and again confusing. For example, what happens when the Jester and Minstrel are both capturing the attention of, say, a Blue Knight, but only the Minstrel is capturing a Yellow Monk? In the draft rules the player who initiated the moving of the pieces by laying a fair tile can move the Jester an Minstrel to a position of his choice, which seems unfair on the Yellow player. Perhaps it would be better if they just cancelled each other out in an overlapping instance? ... or indeed force the Jester and Minstrel to be at least 2 tiles away from each other, so the problem can't occur?


As usual the rules will be updated to take into account your questions:

Can the dragon remove either of them? Does the tower capture them?

Absolutely not. They are neutral figures and cannot be captured.

Do their bonus/penalty apply to wagons on a road or in a cloister/shrine and barns?

Yes, their bonus/penalty does apply to wagons on a road, in a city or in a cloister/shrine.

Barns are effectively a type of farmer, so do not have any penalties or bonuses incurred upon them.

Does the pig get a bonus or penalty from them?

Well, the pig is not a follower (neither is a barn, come to that!) an so is exempt from being caught by the Jester or Minstrel. Also, a pig (once again) is a type of farmer.

The other thing that I don't see explained is: Do you still use the rules from the Catapult when playing with this?

Interesting. I do not yet own The Catapult, so i'm not sure how it actually plays. But, I suppose one can please themselves whether to play the catapult also together with Jester and Minstrel, as long as the Jester/Minstrel cannot be seduced, removed from play etc.

How do they interact with other fan made expansions?  Does this carry over into the Jousting majority of a city?  The stocks?  Woodsmen?  Fishermen?  Gold Miner?

This is where I might need some help. I would say yes, the penalty/bonus is imposed on all followers that are caught in the attention capturing area. However, the penalty/bonus is only imposed at the time of completing any feature. This might need thinking about. In fact, the Jousting Tournament is especially important to clarify on if the bonus/penalty is only imposed at time of scoring.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 06:50:25 am by Joff » Logged
Novelty
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« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2008, 08:15:13 pm »

Thanks for the clarifications.

I'd appreciate it if a footnote could be added that woodsmen and fishermen gain the bonus/penalty from the jester & minstrel, and that gold miners doesn't (they are too busy looking for gold to be distracted).  I would also appreciate a footnote that the jester & minstrel will add to/or cancel out the +1 str bonus from the An Apple A Day counter.  Thanks!
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Joff
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« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2008, 04:12:04 am »

No problem, I will work on it later tonight and post in the morning (UK time).
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Joff
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« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2008, 05:30:23 am »

The undercoat applied to the Jester and Minstrel pieces:



Once dry, they will be sanded down and the top coats applied Smiley
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Joff
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« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2008, 12:58:12 pm »

Rules update: 0.6 draft rules


and an update on the pieces:

« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 01:43:23 pm by Joff » Logged
Whaleyland
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« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2008, 02:19:23 pm »

I am liking the rules a lot more, but I am not sure about the "move to any other space" rule if both figures are fighting for the attention of a follower.  I somehow feel that it is too vague, or perhaps too dangerous, to allow the active player to move both of the figures to any other tile. Perhaps moving one of them would work better because if they keep ending up next to each other (by necessity, chance, or intent), then the active player can always move them to benefit himself the most. I say, let the active player choose which figure to move, but they can only move one, not both.

On a completely different note, I was thinking that the additional 24 chits that come with the game may come in handy, either for this expansion or a stand-alone. If used in this expansion, the four different type of tokens can be used as bonuses or weapons with specific followers on the table or could be used in conjunction with the jester and minstrel. Actually, I am going to make a new post to try and work out my ideas, but combining them could work too.
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