Robber Baron/King and Builder Tile Placement

[marcuserroneous]

Does the person who COMPLETES the longest road (or largest city) become the Robber Baron (or King), or does the person who OWNS the longest completed road (or largest completed city) gain that rank?  The former interpretation makes it difficult for a person to have a strategy for road or city building because someone else can "steal" the rank for completing that person's road or city.

Also, after placing the Builder, must the second tile be immediately drawn and played; or can the player opt to draw an additional tile at a later turn?  And, if the second tile cannot be played on the turn on the designated road or city, must it be returned to stock or can it be played elsewhere on the board?

[mjharper]

Does the person who COMPLETES the longest road (or largest city) become the Robber Baron (or King), or does the person who OWNS the longest completed road (or largest completed city) gain that rank?  The former interpretation makes it difficult for a person to have a strategy for road or city building because someone else can "steal" the rank for completing that person's road or city.

Definitely the player who completes the longest road (see here).

Also, after placing the Builder, must the second tile be immediately drawn and played; or can the player opt to draw an additional tile at a later turn?

It must be drawn and played (after scoring the first tile); you can't 'save up' bonus tiles. Remember that (famously) the double turn is still only one turn.

And, if the second tile cannot be played on the turn on the designated road or city, must it be returned to stock or can it be played elsewhere on the board?

I don't understand this. You can only take a second tile when you connect the first tile to a feature with the builder on it; but the second tile can go anywhere, just as usual. There's no obligation to play the tile to the same feature again, although you can if you want. Or have I missed something?

[dwhitworth]

If I understand the post correctly I think marcuserroneous is asking whether the king/baron go to the player who 'completes" the feature - in the same sense that a player obtains resources (in T&B) by "completing" a city - even your city. Or, does the player have to complete and score a feature in order to get the king/baron? We have always played with the same sense of "completion" as for resources. This makes it advantageous to complete someone else's feature and we like that aspect of the game.

But I don't know that our interpretation is necessarily correct now that I see the question asked. Ruling please Matt?

Is the third issue (placement of bonus tile) confusing because in the rules (CAR and paper rules) all the examples that show how the builder works display bonus tiles that are, or can be, placed adjacent to the feature being extended by the first tile? In a later edition of the rules an example could be created that showed a tile obviously different from the others thus avoiding this confusion.

D

[mjharper]

If I understand the post correctly I think marcuserroneous is asking whether the king/baron go to the player who 'completes" the feature - in the same sense that a player obtains resources (in T&B) by "completing" a city - even your city. Or, does the player have to complete and score a feature in order to get the king/baron? We have always played with the same sense of "completion" as for resources. This makes it advantageous to complete someone else's feature and we like that aspect of the game.

But I don't know that our interpretation is necessarily correct now that I see the question asked. Ruling please Matt?

I linked to the ruling! Here it is in full:

Question: Who gets the King, the player with the biggest city, or the player with the highest scoring city?

Answer: The player who completes the biggest city, that is, the city which consists of the most land tiles, receives the King. This is still the case when another smaller city earns more points through pennants or the cathedral.
The same is true of roads and the Robber Baron.

I don't have a ruling which clarifies that this completion is the same as the completion of a city for resources, or even the same as the completion of a feature (without scoring) to place a follow in Carcassonne City. But I really don't think one is necessary. 'Completion' means just that. The very fact that scoring is not mentioned as a requirement, either in the rules or this FAQ, should be enough. If you want, though, we can add that to the list of questions for HiG…

Is the third issue (placement of bonus tile) confusing because in the rules (CAR and paper rules) all the examples that show how the builder works display bonus tiles that are, or can be, placed adjacent to the feature being extended by the first tile?

You might be right there. But illustrations never show the full extent of a rule…

In a later edition of the rules an example could be created that showed a tile obviously different from the others thus avoiding this confusion.

D

In the original rules or the CAR? So far I've only used original illustrations in the CAR—in fact, the whole thing is meant to be translations, not recreations. If I start putting together my own illustrations, first of all it will require a lot more work, and secondly the coherence of the whole would be undermined. But I might find room for a footnote 

[Scott]

IMHO, the rules are clear. I don't see a need to add anything to the list of questions here.

[Joff]

I agree with Scott on this point. I think the rules are quite clear.

[marcuserroneous]

I appreciate the consensus answer regarding placement of the "Bonus Builder Tile" (that it can go anywhere, not just adjacent to the tile which occasioned its drawing).

However, I am very disappointed with the Robber Baron/King ruling...  This effectively thwarts a person from building a large road or city in order to get an end-of-game bonus because any Johnny-Come-Lately can steal the honor by placing a completing tile... It makes farms much more important (which was why the farm rule was changed a few years ago!), and basically leaves long road building and large city building to luck instead of strategy... I've tried Carc with the "official" rule and find it less interesting...Therefore, I will continue to encourage my interpretation in the games I sponsor or play...

Also, I have found that my house rule entitled "Completion Tile Bonus" to be a very satisfying addition...Inspired by a seven-year old player, Timmy Hewston, it gives 9 points to the person who places a tile in an area which is previously completely surrounded (even if no follower is placed on that tile). Boards are prettier when their holes are filled up and these holes often offer a nice place to put otherwise non-scoring tiles... 

[Scott]

However, I am very disappointed with the Robber Baron/King ruling...  This effectively thwarts a person from building a large road or city in order to get an end-of-game bonus because any Johnny-Come-Lately can steal the honor by placing a completing tile... It makes farms much more important (which was why the farm rule was changed a few years ago!), and basically leaves long road building and large city building to luck instead of strategy... I've tried Carc with the "official" rule and find it less interesting...Therefore, I will continue to encourage my interpretation in the games I sponsor or play...

Even more disappointing is the scoring rules for King & Robber Baron. A few people have reported, and it's been my experience, that the bonuses can be quite huge when a lot of small cities and short roads exist. A T&B-style ten point bonus is used alternatively by some, which might be a little more balanced.

Also, I have found that my house rule entitled "Completion Tile Bonus" to be a very satisfying addition...Inspired by a seven-year old player, Timmy Hewston, it gives 9 points to the person who places a tile in an area which is previously completely surrounded (even if no follower is placed on that tile). Boards are prettier when their holes are filled up and these holes often offer a nice place to put otherwise non-scoring tiles...

That sounds familiar; I must have seen it on BGG (probably posted by you).

[mjharper]

Even more disappointing is the scoring rules for King & Robber Baron. A few people have reported, and it's been my experience, that the bonuses can be quite huge when a lot of small cities and short roads exist. A T&B-style ten point bonus is used alternatively by some, which might be a little more balanced.

I still prefer the King/Robber Baron scoring to the trade goods method, as it allows the tiles to grow with the game, rather than be rendered irrelevant as you add more expansions to the mix. But we've had that debate before…

[canada steve]

I think that if you have a meeple on a road or city and another player completes it then you should still get teh robber/king as you have the controlling influence. Still if you already have the tile for robber then you wouldnt be trying to complete a long road just going for lots o quick short scorers.