Abbey & Mayors Query

[canada steve]

Playing a game last night with every single extra set available (makes for more fun that way), which I won by well over 100 points. However during the game we got to a point where I had a barn down and then my opponent placed a barn that farmed the same city, now we couldnt find out if the immeadiate scoring for this city is affected by the fact that I already farmed it or not.

Also not sure with the scoring on the RGG expansions as they have drastically changed it for A&M, read the scoring for pigs etc and see what you think.

[mjharper]

I'm confused. Were the two barns on the same farm? If they were, then there shouldn't be any immediate scoring when the second barn, because all of the farmers should have been scored with the placement of the first barn.

But if the barn was on a different farm, and connected to the first only through a city, then the issue shouldn't arrive either, even if you're using RGG rules for Abbey and Mayor. Barn placement and immediate scoring is always done from the 'perspective' of the farms themselves—that is, according to the usual 3rd edition HiG rules (I forget if the points are different, though).

And the immediate scoring only affects farmers anyway—if there aren't any farmers on the farm when you place the barn, you don't score anything at that time.

Can you spell out the situation in more detail?

[canada steve]

Hi Matt

Yes one barn was on one field and the other player had a farmer on a seperate field but both touching the same city. Now he placed a tile that allowed him to place a barn on his field and my question for that city that they both touch was how much does the farmer that is being removed score, is it one point?

[mjharper]

Right, I see (I hope!). Yes, it's 1 point. The fact that your farm touched a city which touched his farm is irrelevant. Immediate scoring in A&M is just like HiG rules: you count the number of cities on on the farm, and score 1 point for each (instead of 3). And just like in HiG rules, it's best if you think of it as scoring the farm, rather than scoring the cities. What other farms the individual cities 'serve' is unimportant. And that's true no matter whether you're playing HiG or RGG rules (of course, they're still different for final scoring).

Okay?

Edit: the phrases I've struck through should both say '3 points'…

[dwhitworth]

Hi,

I am puzzled by Matt's reply. The CAR rules saythat when a barn is played on a farm, the farmers are scored immediately "in the same way as at the end of the game" - i.e. three points (or more for a pig etc.)

The only time a farmer scores one point is when a farm is "connected" (by playing a field tile) to another farm that already contains a barn - in a situation similar to that when you need to resolve farm majorities at game-end.

Since in canada steve's case the farms are not connected - except by a city (and in non Abbey&Mayors play you would not have a situation requiring resolution of farmer majority at game-end) - the second farm is surely independent and scored as a separate farm at 3 or more points as appropriate.

Am I missing something?

D

[mjharper]

No, you're right—my mistake. It should score 3 points. I was trying not to confused the HiG and RGG rules, and ended up doing so anyway. (I've got Foucault and Lacan battling it out in my head at the moment—finding it hard to think straight).

  :

Okay, so you've got two farms, A and B. There are four farmers on each; the two farms are both 'served' by city Z (that is, from the perspective of city Z, farm A is on one side, and farm B is on the other). A player places a barn to farm A; all the farmers on that farm are scored immediately, scoring 3 points for every adjacent farm (when the rules say "as usual", they mean 'according to the HiG rules'—because this is completely different from the usual RGG rules). Another player puts a barn on farm B; every farmer is scored immediately, again scoring 3 points.

Now, I might still be going round in circles, but I think canada steve's question was whether the farmers on farm B should only be worth 1 point, because they're connected to farm A via city Z. I took this to be a confusion of the HiG rules and RGG rules. According to the usual RGG rules, once a city has been scored (for 4 points), it can't be scored again. So, since city Z has been scored—for three points, from farm A—can it be scored again, for the full 3 points, from farm B?

I was trying to say that the perspective of city Z is irrelevant to this immediate scoring—as it always is in HiG rules, but completely differently to the usual RGG rules. In HiG rules, a city can be scored multiple times, once from the perspective of each farm which touches it—whereas in RGG rules, a farmer can be scored multiple times, once for each city adjacent to the farm.

This is the big problem with Abbey and Mayor: as I've said before, while the expansion makes farmer scoring easier for HiG players—by removing farmers before final scoring, keeping the farms clear afterwards, and making 'immediate scoring' easier because the farms are likely to be smaller—the rules are much more complicated for RGG players, because in-game scoring is totally different from end-game scoring.

So I'm assuming that canada steve was using RGG rules—is that true? Otherwise I really need to reboot my system…

Sorry for the confusion.

[canada steve]

  Yes Matt RGG rules, not HiG. So you havent totally lost it yet !!

Foucault and Lacan, jeez are you studying law at the moment or just like reading some serious stuff, Foucault Madness & Civilization might sum up Carc nicely 

[Joff]

We played our first game with A&M last night. It was OK. One of our house rules (we use 3rd edition scoring) is that we keep the 2 point rule for a 2 tile city. We have foreseen a problem with this rule. What happens when an Abbey tile is played in a space that completes a 1 tile city that is occupied? I believe the rules state that the Abbey tile completes the city but is not part of the completed city, therefore the Abbey tile is not scored as part of a completed city. So, that 1 tile city is completed with the placement of the Abbey tile but it is still just that... a 1 tile city! What should we score? Those using 1st edition rules, what should they score? If it is 2 points, that makes the 2 tile city rule unfair! If it is now only 1 point then the argument could be used that the Abbey does indeed complete the city, so it should score 2 points!

Perhaps it's time to fully move to the HiG 3rd edition rules, giving 2 points per tile regardless!

[mjharper]

I'm writing this B.C. (before coffee) so I hope there's no howlers 

@canada steve: Phew! So the advice is: remember that 'immediate' scoring is totally different to final scoring!

I'm thinking I should change the CAR to reflect this discussion since I have a feeling that the word "usual" was the culprit. It is 'usual' for HiG, but not RGG, and the CAR should reflect that better…

And I'm reading Foucault and Lacan in a course on identity. I thought this would be a nice detour from my main Masters. Ho ho.

[mjharper]

@Joff: My guess would be here that you should take the 'small city rule' to apply to any city of two tiles or less. That is, in the case of a one-tile city, the city should score only 1 point. It wouldn't make sense for a one-tile city to be worth 2 points, and the 'small city rule' was meant to stop players from gaining quick points from small cities—that should apply to cities even smaller than specified by the rule.

The real pain, as far as I can see, is going to come when you have an open two-tile city. To close it would require a third tile, and it would then score 6 points. But if you close it with an Abbey, it will stay a two-tile city and score only 2 points. I can imagine some players getting irate over that!

Also tricky to ask HiG for a ruling here, because they'd just write back and say 'What? You're still using that rule?'

I'd switch to full 3rd edition, if I were you—but then I would say that!

[Joff]

I'm thinking along your lines here Matt. The house rule will be dropped next time we play for consistancy.

I have uploaded a photo on my BT Digital Vault:

Link removed because it don't work!!!!

Just to make sure my scoring is correct, would someone be so kind as to check this out (with 3rd edition scoring):

The black Abbey tile has just been played. If a monk is deployed there he scores 9 points (Abbey is surrounded by tiles).

The Red city is now complete and scores 2 points.

The green city is now complete and scores 6 points.

The blue city is now complete and scores 18 points.

[mjharper]

I'm clicking the link, but it keeps telling me that the session has expired…

[Joff]

I'll e-mail it over

[mjharper]

okay!

[mjharper]

So here's Joff's photo



I'd say that the scoring is correct… But I've only just started the second coffee, so the brain is not properly functioning yet.