The Ocean

[djdahmer]

So, without any further adu, Here it is:

http://www.mediafire.com/?ni1nggggq5j

Is anyone else having trouble downloading this file? My virus scanner is currently blocking everything on the mediafire.com website saying that it has been identified as dangerous.

[skipboris]

So, without any further adu, Here it is:

http://www.mediafire.com/?ni1nggggq5j

Is anyone else having trouble downloading this file? My virus scanner is currently blocking everything on the mediafire.com website saying that it has been identified as dangerous.

I don't know what to tell you.  It has worked just fine for me.  Since anyone can upload anything to that site, your virus scanner blocked the site with good reason.  You just have to trust me. 

[skipboris]

There are some formatting issues (different font and font sizes, footnotes not justified, etc.), typos, and the usual American vs British English, but I guess that can be fixed up immediately prior to the release version.

Page 1: "Place a tile - move wood - score" would be more accurately defined as "Place a tile - Deploy follower - score".  Note that RGG does not use the term "move wood".
Page 2: Question: Can a non-Ocean tile be used to extend an island?  If not this needs to be stated in footnote 6.  If so, then the statement that you cannot play non-Ocean tiles to the Ocean side is erroneous.
Page 3: Does the free move with wind count as your 1 free move per turn or is it in addition?

Also, the document structure is still a little "out of whack".  I feel that Ocean Deployment section should be before The Ocean & fishermen, so that the document "flows" better.  It would be better structured as:
Ocean Deployment
Harbours
Fleets
Sailing
Winds
Reefs
Ocean Sailing example
Ocean Challenge
The Ocean & fishermen
Island
Govenors
Govenor Mansions
Final Scoring

Anyways, keep up the good work.

What do you think about the content changes like the wind and simplified combat rules and so on?

[Novelty]

I think the free move is a good idea.  I also think that the wind is another good idea if it gives an additional free move.  However, I think the picture for wind could be better (perhaps like a gust of air or a cloud with eyes and a mouth blowing air out of its mouth) than the triangle.  The triangle though isn't bad and if that's what you're settling for, I would have no complaints about it.

I like the simplified combat rules as well, I think, but I would need to play a few games with it to get the hang of things.  Combat though really isn't a Carcassonne thing, but it works for your expansion, so I say keep it by all means.

I think Islands can be eliminated completely from this expansion.  What used to work for the previous expansion is that normal carc tiles can be added to islands.  Now that they can't, well, Islands are a bit superfluous and can probably be an expansion on their own.  Taking out islands would probably take out Governor's mansion as well.  I know these are supposed to be the cloister equivalents (sort of) for oceans though, but I also don't think that would be a good reason to include them in here (because you can actually do them justice in a future expansion).

The new rules also state that ships cannot share the same ocean space, except at harbours.  I think it might be good to have like a seawall thing on the border of the sea side of the harbour tile, but a little bit inside so that there is still some water between the wall and the edge of the tile.  This would separate the waters of the harbour from the waters of the other tile and make it immediately more visible that there can be more than one ship on that tile.

[skipboris]

I think the free move is a good idea.  I also think that the wind is another good idea if it gives an additional free move.  However, I think the picture for wind could be better (perhaps like a gust of air or a cloud with eyes and a mouth blowing air out of its mouth) than the triangle.  The triangle though isn't bad and if that's what you're settling for, I would have no complaints about it.  I went through a few designs and ultimately settled on the arrow.  Its small and easily depicts the wind direction.  A wavy or wispy arrow doesn't fit the art and ends up being too big imo.

I like the simplified combat rules as well, I think, but I would need to play a few games with it to get the hang of things.  Combat though really isn't a Carcassonne thing, but it works for your expansion, so I say keep it by all means. I don't want people to engage in combat.  It's not a Carcassonne thing.  But I want movement to be part of the strategy and you could set up a blockade pretty easily.  To counter this I added combat rules.  As a variant, you could play without combat and sometimes the only way around someone is to place new tiles.

I think Islands can be eliminated completely from this expansion.  What used to work for the previous expansion is that normal carc tiles can be added to islands.  Now that they can't, well, Islands are a bit superfluous and can probably be an expansion on their own.  Taking out islands would probably take out Governor's mansion as well.  I know these are supposed to be the cloister equivalents (sort of) for oceans though, but I also don't think that would be a good reason to include them in here (because you can actually do them justice in a future expansion).  Islands are the bread and butter of this expansion and ultimately the main draw to sailing.  They also give it a really cool look.  I made two simplifications: no roads, no mainland tiles.  This will be fixed quickly with expansions.  Basically I wanted the initial investment into this expansion to be a bit lower, yet still basically retain the same flavor.

The new rules also state that ships cannot share the same ocean space, except at harbours.  I think it might be good to have like a seawall thing on the border of the sea side of the harbour tile, but a little bit inside so that there is still some water between the wall and the edge of the tile.  This would separate the waters of the harbour from the waters of the other tile and make it immediately more visible that there can be more than one ship on that tile.  My thought was that harbors are guarded by the French navy and they protect the tiles from fighting.  These tiles are already jam-packed with art I think some walls would just clutter it further.

comments in red. Thanks very much for the input!

[Novelty]

I'm not too sure about the islands, but I agree with what you've said for everything else.  Ultimately this is your expansion/spin-off after all, so go along with what you want and what you think will be good for the expansion/game.  It's looking good so far.  All you have to do is to polish up the rules further and it'll be ready for public downloads.

[skipboris]

Here's version 0.71.   http://www.mediafire.com/?mi1zgtnjzef

Mostly simple revisions, but also included are some rules for playing with official expansions.  Let me know what you think.  Ready for 1.0?

[Novelty]

Looks good.  Now all that has to be cleaned up is the formatting.

As for the new section, you might want to state "The pig and the builder" or "The big follower" or "The wagon and the mayor" instead of "New followers".  BTW, neither the pig or the builder is a follower.
Fairy: Can it be moved to an ocean space - the rules say nothing about that.
I would also change "catapult fire" to "seduction/knock-out tokens".

I'll go through it in detail when I have the time.  Keep up the good work.

[skipboris]

Looks good.  Now all that has to be cleaned up is the formatting.

As for the new section, you might want to state "The pig and the builder" or "The big follower" or "The wagon and the mayor" instead of "New followers".  BTW, neither the pig or the builder is a follower.
Fairy: Can it be moved to an ocean space - the rules say nothing about that.
I would also change "catapult fire" to "seduction/knock-out tokens".

I'll go through it in detail when I have the time.  Keep up the good work.

What formatting needs clean up?

[Novelty]

Sorry for the delay.

Cover: The word "expansion" is misspelt in the bottom right hand corner.

Page 2 Story: "sailboat" is one word (ditto for the rest of the document).  The phrase "faint of heart" is spelt with an "a"
Page 2 Extra pieces:  "mansions" might be better as "Governor's Mansion" because that's how you describe them below.
Question Page 2 Preparation 2nd sentence: Is this done in turn order, or is it a free for all?
Page 2 Preparation 3rd sentence: The n[sN[/s]ormal ocean rules apply, so only the harbour spaces may hold boats of multiple colours may only be deployed to the harbour spaces.
Page 2 Preparation: "Carcassonne City" should be "City of Carcassonne"
Question Page 2 Preparation: Is the City of Carc placed adjacent to the beach (i.e. on the ocean side?) or adjacent to the starter tile on the land side?

Page 3 Drawing an Ocean tile: comma missing between the words tile and which in the 3rd sentence.  "You" would be better if changed to "A player" (Ditto for the rest of the document).  Decide on whether the initial O in Ocean should be capitalised and stick with it (use either Ocean or ocean in the middle of a sentence.  If it's the initial word, the first O should be capitalised as per normal English grammar).
Page 3 Ocean Deployment: Insert the word "the" as the second word between Unlike and Carcassonne.  I think you can delete the sentence "Most claiming in the ocean is done by sailing, not by normal deployment." as it is described in the previous and next sentences.  Decide on whether you want "1 move, 2 moves, etc." or "one move, two moves, etc." and stick with that for the rest of the document.
Page 3 Harbours: Paragraph needs to be justified.  "hold more than one colour of followers" would be better phrased as "contain followers of more than one colour".  "water" is a bit ambiguous - "ocean space of the harbour tile" would be better.
Page 3 Fleets: meeples should be changed to followers (ditto for the rest of the document).  color should be colour.  the "A" in "as" within the parenthesis should be a small-letter "a".  And I just read through this have decided I'll change my mind.  The Fleets section actually works better after the Wind section (so Harbours, then Sailing, then Wind, then Fleets).  (Reminder to self - try to read through everything before making suggestions on the forum)
Page 3 Sailing: Good

Page 4 general: 2 background boxes - one of them should be deleted.
Page 4 Winds: Good 
Page 4 Reefs: Reefs are closed by large rocks, as seen in the example here.  Replaced the word closed there with "depicted" or something similar.  "waters" = "ocean space"?

Page 5 Ocean Challenge example (first paragraph): "Its reds turn" should be "It is red's turn".  "fisher boat" should be "fishing boat"?  "was reds" should be "is red".  The word "The" is missing before the first word of the sentence "Same colour boats may always share the same tile."
Page 5 Ocean  example(second paragraph): "He also can" is bad grammar - "He can also" would be good grammar.  "White" should be "While"
Page 5 Ocean Challenge: No comments 
Page 5 Ocean Challenge Simple rules: reserve should be supply (ditto for the rest of the document).
Question Page 5 Ocean Challenge Advanced rules: Pirates draw 2 tiles for each pirate or reef tile, or

Page 6 The Ocean & fishermen: landmass is one word
page 6 Islands: The owner of the island, called the governor, is the player with a follower on that island's feature which has the most points the most valuable feature, owned.
Page 6 Islands example: This completes the island and yellow deploys his pig to the tile just played. As his ‘move the wood’ he places a pig.  The bold text - "island completes" would be better as "island is completed".  The example might be better moved to after the "govenor's section".

Page 7 Governors: See above regarding dittos
Page 7 Governors Mansions: Apostrophe missing in the title.  The last sentence regarding the interaction with the Count of Carc may be deleted as it is explained below.
Page 7 Final scoring: Paragraph needs to be justified.
Page 7 Playing with official expansions RI&II: I would delete the "Future expansions may include deltas." sentence.  We don't know what HiG/RGG will release next
Page 7 Playing with official expansions I&C: New followers?  Is it just the "Big follower"?
Page 7 Playing with official expansions T&B: New followers?  There are no followers in T&B, only the pig and the builder.
Question Page 7 Playing with official expansions P&D: Why can't the dragon fly over the ocean?
Page 7 Playing with official expansions Tower: How about over islands, or over a mixture of water and land?  Would it be better to keep the tower the same as normal and introduce a lighthouse piece (paint a tower piece white?) instead?
Page 7 Playing with official expansions A&M: I would use "The mayor, wagon and barn" instead of just "New followers to be more precise.  Abbey tiles may not be played on the Ocean side?  (Abbey tiles cannot be used on anything usually)
Page 7 Playing with official expansions CoC: sentence needs to be justified.
Page 7 Playing with official expansions Catapult: How about seduction?

Page 8 Version History: ver 0.4 has 2oo9 instead of 2009 like the rest.

Phew.  I don't think I got everything, but that should be the majority of it.  Have fun revising it to 1.0 for public downloads!

[skipboris]

Question Page 7 Playing with official expansions P&D: Why can't the dragon fly over the ocean?
Page 7 Playing with official expansions Tower: How about over islands, or over a mixture of water and land?  Would it be better to keep the tower the same as normal and introduce a lighthouse piece (paint a tower piece white?) instead?
Page 7 Abbey tiles may not be played on the Ocean side?  (Abbey tiles cannot be used on anything usually)

Thank you very much for the thorough critique!  There are two reasons the dragon can't fly over the ocean: 1) Can he fly?  He can't get into the city of Carcassonne.  2) In a future expansion of mine there will be a new roaming threat to the ocean.  Also, in the first expansion I'm adding back in the expanding islands rules.  At that point, you could put a volcano on an island and send him over there.  But he will be stranded...

As for the tower, it would be too easy to stay out of the firing lines on the ocean.  By giving it wider range on the ocean it makes the towers harder to avoid.  Of course, theres nothing stopping one from writing a lighthouse variant that has white tower blocks.

Abbeys to me only fit over land.  It wouldn't match the weathered beaches of the ocean.  I'm planning on a future expansion that will add in tiles that fill gaps.

And here is version 0.72.  It is hopefully a contender for 1.0!

http://www.mediafire.com/?uawjmwxaznx

[Novelty]

Quick lookthrough for errors:

General: There are still multiple occurances of "you" instead of "a player" in the document.  Use the search and replace function in Word to replace them?
General: Are the letters "G" and "M" capitalised in Governor's Mansion?  If so, please ensure that all occurance of it in the document are capitalised.

Page 2 Story: "faint of heart" is still incorrectly spelt as "feint of heart"
Page 2 Preparation: "Take turns doing this." in what order?  Turn order?  Randomly?  Whoever gets there first?
Page 2 Preparation: The word "The" missing from the front of the 4th sentence which goes "Normal Ocean rules apply,..."

Page 3 Drawing an Ocean Tile: There is a revision bar to the left of the last line in my view.  I have no idea if that appears in your view, but if it does, it needs to be removed.
Page 3 Ocean Deployment: There are 4 spaces before the sentence "Reefs are claimed by sailing."  Your normal number of spaces between sentences is 2.
Page 3 Fleets: Needs to be moved to after the Winds section (Pg 4)?

Page 4 Reefs 1st para: Delete the sentence "Reefs are closed by large rocks, as seen in the example here." as  it's a duplicate of the 2nd sentence of the paragraph.
Page 4 Reefs 2nd para: "Put him into adjacent waters." - waters would be better rephrased to "Ocean space" to make it common with the phrasing used in Harbours (pg 3).

Page 5 General: Two background boxes.  One of them needs to be deleted.
Page 5 Ocean sailing example: "reds options" in the first sentence is missing an apostrophe i.e. red's options.  Ditto with "reds turn" in the 3rd sentence, i.e. red's turn.

Page 6 The Ocean & fishermen: landmass is one word

Page 7 General: missing background box
Page 7 Islands: "your" needs to be changed to "a player's" as well.  Please remember the apostrophe

Page 8 Playing the Ocean as a spinoff (stand alone): The whole section needs to be justified

Page 9 General: Background box missing

Page 7 Playing with official expansions Tower: How about over islands, or over a mixture of water and land?

As for the tower, it would be too easy to stay out of the firing lines on the ocean.  By giving it wider range on the ocean it makes the towers harder to avoid.  Of course, theres nothing stopping one from writing a lighthouse variant that has white tower blocks.[/quote]I think you misunderstood my question.  The way you have currently written it is:

"Lighthouses also may capture diagonally over water (up to 8 directions), but still only horizontally and vertically over land."

So let's say I have a lighthouse 2 tiles from the beach.  I place a tower piece to make a 6 piece tall tower.

Let's say the map looks something like this:

T O B L L 3
O O B L L L
O O B L L 2
O O B L L L
4 O B L 1 L

(T = lighthouse tower, O = ocean, B = beach, L = land tile, 1 = follower for question 1, 2 = follower for question 2, 3 = follower for statement 3, 4 = follower for statement 4, 4 = follower for statement 4).

1. Can I capture a follower that's 5 diagonal tiles (2 Ocean, 1 beach, 2 land) away?
2. Can I capture a follower that's 3 diagonal tiles (2 Ocean, 1 beach) and 3 horizontal tile (3 land) away?
3. We know that the tower can capture a follower that's 5 horizontal tiles (2 Ocean, 1 beach, 2 land) away and that is allowed by the current statement in the Ocean rules.
4. We also know that tower can capture a follower that's 5 vertical tiles (5 Ocean) away and that is also allowed by the current statement in the Ocean rules.

The current statement in the Ocean rules will not allow 1, but will allow 2 (and 3 and 4).  Hence my statement that it might be better to not let towers capture diagonally - otherwise, you'll have to write an entire paragraph about it.  However, you are free to also write a paragraph.  You might also want to put a footnote that the beach tile is considered to be Ocean (i.e. diagonal allowed) or Land (i.e. diagonal not allowed) if you are writing the paragraph.  And then you'll probably need an example of some sort since you're adding a new rule.

[skipboris]

"Lighthouses also may capture diagonally over water (up to 8 directions), but still only horizontally and vertically over land."

So let's say I have a lighthouse 2 tiles from the beach.  I place a tower piece to make a 6 piece tall tower.

Let's say the map looks something like this:

T O B L L 3
O O B L L L
O O B L L 2
O O B L L L
4 O B L 1 L

(T = lighthouse tower, O = ocean, B = beach, L = land tile, 1 = follower for question 1, 2 = follower for question 2, 3 = follower for statement 3, 4 = follower for statement 4, 4 = follower for statement 4).

1. Can I capture a follower that's 5 diagonal tiles (2 Ocean, 1 beach, 2 land) away?
2. Can I capture a follower that's 3 diagonal tiles (2 Ocean, 1 beach) and 3 horizontal tile (3 land) away?
3. We know that the tower can capture a follower that's 5 horizontal tiles (2 Ocean, 1 beach, 2 land) away and that is allowed by the current statement in the Ocean rules.
4. We also know that tower can capture a follower that's 5 vertical tiles (5 Ocean) away and that is also allowed by the current statement in the Ocean rules.

The current statement in the Ocean rules will not allow 1, but will allow 2 (and 3 and 4).  Hence my statement that it might be better to not let towers capture diagonally - otherwise, you'll have to write an entire paragraph about it.  However, you are free to also write a paragraph.  You might also want to put a footnote that the beach tile is considered to be Ocean (i.e. diagonal allowed) or Land (i.e. diagonal not allowed) if you are writing the paragraph.  And then you'll probably need an example of some sort since you're adding a new rule.

1 is not allowable because you can't capture a land follower diagonally.  2 is not allowable because it is not lined up vertically, horizontally, nor diagonally.  It has to line up exactly.  A follower on a beach tile could be on land or ocean.  It depends on which part of the tile the follower is residing.

I have tried to include all your comments in the following revision: 0.73!

http://www.mediafire.com/?dzfyzmntywn

[djdahmer]

Just noticed one small error so far:

  Page 3, note 8: “Harbors” should be spelt "Harbours"

[Whaleyland]

  Page 3, note 8: “Harbors” should be spelt "Harbours"

Who says that's a spelling error. In Britain, harbours is the only way to spell it. Ya need the diphthong!