River II spring irrelevant?

[Scott]

These are some things I brought up in my review of the Annotated Rules, but this is definitely a better place to be discussing them.

The volcano tile is last because it brings out the dragon, but indeed, if you're not playing with the P&D expansion, I'd be more inclined to use the original lake tile. Reading the rules for the River, I get the impression that the forced placement of the lake tile occurs between turns, so it is not possible to place a follower on the lake in that case. In the case of the River II, it is not permissible to place a follower on a volcano tile, so in my mind it makes sense that when using the normal lake tile instead of the volcano lake tile, that the normal lake tile should be placed after the lake with a city tile. It seems the rule of thumb is that followers may not be placed on tiles that are forced placements, though I think/hope that it is allowed to place a follower in the city on a lake tile since there is no explicit mention of the player who places this tile taking an extra turn. Perhaps this is a question for HiG?

The River actually says that the OST may be mixed in with the other (normal) tiles, or placed immediately after the lake.

In that case, there's a typo in the Annotated Rules because it says "mixed in with the stack of river tiles".

My inclination would be to mix the OST with the rest of the tiles, but so far I've been leaving it out in all my games. Although it is permitted to place it after the lake, that's too much like a forced placement IMHO. Might be good to add a footnote about this in the relevant spots, with or without an official ruling (would be nice to hear what HiG has to say though).

[Borderking]

I'm glad we're discussing this, because even though it seems like a trivial point, I've always wondered about this.

Scott, I think there's one point of disagreement.  As far as I understand, there are various kinds of "forced placements."  But some are not "player's turns," and some are.

Example #1)  If playing with only the basic game, the OST is placed first, and is not considered anyone's turn (no followers may be placed).

Example #2)  If playing with the basic game and River I, the spring is placed first and is not anyone's turn.  However, once the river is completed, that lake is placed by the next player...so although that lake tile is forced upon the player, it does count as his turn, and he may place a follower on the lake tile.  At least, that is my interpretation, and it explains why the rules explicitly state differently when discussing the volcano tile.  If, at this point, after the lake tile is placed, you choose to go with the OST tile next, that would again be a player's turn.  (I thought the original River I rules state you should disregard the OST when playing with the River I, but if not, I'll probably just mix it in with the remaining tiles from now in.

Example #3)  If playing with the basic game and River II, the spring is placed first and is not anyone's turn.  Immediately following this, the river fork tile is a "forced placement" for the youngest player, but that does count as his turn, and a follower may be placed (I believe).  Then, the river is built.  Now, at this point, there seems to be some ambiguity.  If the volcano tile is one of the two lake tiles being used, then after the river tiles are used up, the non-volcano lake tile is a "forced placement" for the next player, and that does count as his turn, and a follower may be placed.  Then, the next player must place the volcano lake tile, and while that is his turn, no follower may be placed (because of the special exception for the volcano tile), and therefore there is another exception allowing the same player to immediately draw and place another tile, on which he may deploy a follower.

However, if you're not playing with the Princess and the Dragon, but with both the River I and River II expansions, you must "remove one spring tile and one lake tile," because you should now have two springs and three lakes (including the volcano, and of course, not including the GQ expansion).  So, if you choose to use the two non-volcano lake tiles, then once the river is finished, there doesn't seem to be an official ruling as to how the next player chooses which lake tile to draw and place.  According to my interpretation, whichever lake tile is chosen, it definitely counts as the next player's turn, and a follower may be deployed.  The issue is, it makes a big deal if the next player gets to choose which of the two lake tiles he gets to place (because one of them has a city segment, I believe).  But nowhere in the rules does it state that one of the two lake tiles must be placed last (if you're not using the volcano).  So my guess would be that, as it currently stands without an official ruling, the next player would have to draw blindly from the two lake tiles face-down.  Then the next player would be forced to draw and play the other lake tile, which would still be his turn, and he could deploy followers.  Then, you're back to the whole question of whether to play the OST next or to mix it in with the remaining tiles.

Sorry if this is long-winded, just trying to clarify the question.

In summary, this is my understanding:

If you're playing

Basic Game
Original Starting Tile - Automatic placement, not a turn, no followers deployed.
Game then begins with youngest player choosing from the remaining pile.

Basic Game with River I
Spring Tile - Automatic placement, not a turn, no followers deployed.
Youngest player begins by choosing from River tiles. 
River completed.
Lake Tile - Forced placement upon next player, counts as turn, followers deployed.
Game continues with the next player choosing from the remaining pile (possibly containing OST?).

Basic Game with River II
Spring Tile - Automatic placement, not a turn, no followers deployed.
River Fork Tile - Youngest player begins by being "forced" to place the River Fork tile, counts as turn, followers deployed.
The game continues with the next player choosing from the remaining River tiles.
River completed.
Non-volcano Lake Tile - The next player is "forced" to play this tile on either of two path-ends of the forked river, counts as turn, followers deployed.
Volcano-Lake Tile - The next player is "forced" to play this tile on the only remaining incomplete river end, counts as turn, followers may not be deployed, player allowed to draw and place again, followers deployed on new tile.
Game continues with the next player choosing from the remaining pile (possibly containing OST?).

Basic Game with River I and River II  (One spring is chosen, even possibly the one from GQ, and two of the three lakes are chosen.)
[If one of the two lakes chosen is the volcano Lake tile, follow the same procedure as for above (Basic Game with River II).]
If both of the non-volcano Lake tiles are chosen to play with, then:
Spring tile - Automatic placement, not a turn, no followers deployed.
River Fork Tile - Youngest player begins by being "forced" to place the River Fork tile, counts as turn, followers deployed.
The game continues with the next player choosing from the remaining River tiles.
River completed.
  Next step is in question until clarified.  My guess would be the next player draws "unsighted" from the two lake tiles face-down, then plays the drawn lake tile on either of two path-ends of the forked river, counts as turn, followers deployed.
Then, the next player is "forced" to draw the other remaining lake tile and place it on the only remaining incomplete river end, counts as turn, followers deployed.
Game continues with the next player choosing from the remaining pile (possibly containing OST?).

Do I have this right?  This is moot, of course, if it's official that when using River I and River II, both of the River II lakes are supposed to be used...but I was under the impression you merely "disregarded one spring and one lake," which would mean you could choose which spring and which lakes you want to play with.  There's not much point to playing with the volcano if you're not playing with the dragon.

[Scott]

It will be interesting to see how this turns out.

This time around, I'm checking both the Annotated Rules AND the RGG rules. Annotated rules will be referred to as AR for the rest of my post.

Basic Game with River I

According to RGG, the OST is removed when playing with the river. Both AR and RGG agree that the placement of the spring is not part of anybody's turn. The RGG rules seem to indicate that the lake is placed as part of a person's turn, which is the opposite impression to what the AR give me.

When the 10 river tiles have been played, the next player plays the lake and then play continues with the normal tiles.

When the river is finished, the lake tile is placed, and the game continues with the remaining tiles.

The AR make it seem like the lake is placed between turns, though it's possible I'm just making the wrong conclusion here.

Basic Game with River II

According to RGG, the OST is removed. Branch is placed as part of the first player's turn; nothing prohibiting follower deployment. City/lake tile is not even mentioned; volcano/lake tile placed after all other river tiles. There is not even any mention of separating the city/lake tile, which suggests to me that is actually mixed with the river tiles. This would mean that one of the branches could be completed before the other, with subsequent river tiles going to the other branch in whatever order they are drawn. This opens up yet another question: do we separate both lake tiles or just the volcano/lake tile?

Basic Game with River I and II

According to the footnotes in the AR, one spring and one lake are discarded, but there is no specification which ones to discard. This would seem to allow the possibility of discarding the volcano/lake tile. The double-placement rule seems to be caused by the volcano itself, and not by the fact that it is the last tile, so you are probably right that follower deployment may always occur on the normal lake tile regardless of which expansions are being used. Whether or not the player draws blindly one of the lake tiles at the end depends on whether the city/lake tile is set aside or mixed in with the other river tiles.

Summary of my understanding

Basic Game
Original Starting Tile - Automatic placement, not a turn, no followers deployed.
Game then begins with youngest player choosing from the remaining pile.

Basic Game with River I
Spring Tile - Automatic placement, not a turn, no followers deployed.
Youngest player begins by choosing from River tiles. 
River completed.
Lake Tile - Forced placement upon next player, counts as turn, followers deployed.
Game continues with the next player choosing from the remaining pile (possibly containing OST).

Basic Game with River II
Spring Tile - Automatic placement, not a turn, no followers deployed.
River Fork Tile - Youngest player begins by being "forced" to place the River Fork tile, counts as turn, followers deployed.
The game continues with the next player choosing from the remaining River tiles, which includes the city/lake tile.
River completed.
Volcano-Lake Tile - The next player is "forced" to play this tile on the only remaining incomplete river end, counts as turn, followers may not be deployed, player allowed to draw and place again, followers deployed on new tile.
Game continues with the next player choosing from the remaining pile (possibly containing OST).

Basic Game with River I and River II  (One spring and one lake are discarded.)
Spring tile - Automatic placement, not a turn, no followers deployed.
River Fork Tile - Youngest player begins by being "forced" to place the River Fork tile, counts as turn, followers deployed.
The game continues with the next player choosing from the remaining River tiles, including the city/lake tile.
River completed.
Either the volcano/lake tile is placed and the player is allowed to draw and place again, or the regular lake tile is placed and the player is not allowed to draw again.

Original Starting Tile
Option 1: play it at start, which excludes the use of any rivers or Count expansion.
Option 2: play it after the river as a forced placement (follower deployment allowed)
Option 3: mix it in with the rest of the land tiles
Option 4: discard it

Forced placements
Type 1: follower deployment allowed - occurs as part of a turn
Type 2: follower deployment not allowed - occurs outside of a turn
Type 3: follower deployment not allowed due to tile feature - take extra turn

I'm still not clear on whether follower deployment is allowed on the volcano/lake tile when the P&D expansion is not being used, since according to the rules the volcano tile has no special significance anymore. In theory, there's a possible advantage to leaving the volcano/lake tile in because it gives a double-turn. A player could place a pig on the volcano/lake tile if it's connected to their farm, and then place another tile with a follower.

[canada steve]

Stop me if I'm wrong guys but when placing the lake and volcano tile you are not totaly stopped form placing a piece, you may place a pig or a builder on this tile but not a meeple, which can be advantageous if the river tile with the pig famr has come out at the right time for you.

Dont see the problem with the tile placement on the rivers myself. When using both sets you put to one side the tile with spring, volcano and the branch to be used at the specific times, all other tiles go inthe bag,stack or whatever you use, to be drawn each turn. So the spring goes first with no placement allowed, branch next (unless you have your own variation in play) and placement is allowed, whic can be very advantageous for farming, then each tile comes out of the stack/bag until last player is forced to play the volcano tile. End of river placement and no problem. Yes I can see why if not using P&D you would want to use normal lake tile, with relevant allowance but if you use either tile and dont allow a meeple to be placed on that tile then its more fun as you can battle to connect round the end of the river to farm further, which I believe is the original intention.

And also does anyone actually still use the youngest player first rule ? All of our players are over 21 so it got dumped straight away and now its just a case of who pulls the black meeple out of the bag goes first.

Really as long as all your players agree on a certain ruling then go with what suits you best.

[Scott]

Stop me if I'm wrong guys but when placing the lake and volcano tile you are not totaly stopped form placing a piece, you may place a pig or a builder on this tile but not a meeple, which can be advantageous if the river tile with the pig famr has come out at the right time for you.

That's correct, but if you're not playing P&D, the volcano loses it's significance, so I'm wondering if meeples can be placed on it in that situation.

Dont see the problem with the tile placement on the rivers myself. When using both sets you put to one side the tile with spring, volcano and the branch to be used at the specific times, all other tiles go inthe bag,stack or whatever you use, to be drawn each turn. So the spring goes first with no placement allowed, branch next (unless you have your own variation in play) and placement is allowed, whic can be very advantageous for farming, then each tile comes out of the stack/bag until last player is forced to play the volcano tile. End of river placement and no problem. Yes I can see why if not using P&D you would want to use normal lake tile, with relevant allowance but if you use either tile and dont allow a meeple to be placed on that tile then its more fun as you can battle to connect round the end of the river to farm further, which I believe is the original intention.

Sounds like you are agreeing that the city/lake tile goes in the bag? Have you been playing it this way in your games?

And also does anyone actually still use the youngest player first rule ? All of our players are over 21 so it got dumped straight away and now its just a case of who pulls the black meeple out of the bag goes first.

We played youngest player starts in the last game I played. Most of the players were under 20. It was the first time I had played with that rule, because in the RGG rules "the players decide among themselves who will be the starting player, using any method they choose." Before that last game I played, I hadn't read the Annotated Rules.

[Borderking]

Scott, you brought up a good point.  I completely forgot to consider the option of mixing the city/lake tile into the bag with the other River tiles when playing with the volcano.

But that still begs the question:  What if you're playing with River I and River II, and you choose not to use the volcano tile?  There is no mention, in that case, of which lake tile HAS to go last.  So, at this point, the simple questions is, when playing with the two non-vocano lake tiles, is there an official ruling as to whether the original lake tile must be placed last (allowing you to mix the city/lake tile in with the River tiles, just as you would if you were setting aside the volcano tile)?

The possible rulings in this case could be:
#1)  Players must set aside Original Lake Tile (to be placed last), mix City/Lake Tile in with River tiles.
or
#2)  Players must set aside City/Lake Tile (to be placed last), mix Original Lake Tile in with River tiles.
or
#3)  Players may choose with Lake Tile will be set aside to end the River, and mix the other Lake Tile in with the River Tiles.
or
#4)  Players must set aside BOTH Lake Tiles face down, and once the river is completed, the next player draws from the two possible Lake Tiles (and plays it), and then the next player plays the other Lake Tile.
or
#5)  Players mix BOTH Lake Tiles in with the River Tiles.  River Tiles are drawn and placed, and as soon as one players draws and places one of the Lake Tiles, the players search the remaining River Tiles for the other Lake Tile, set it aside at that point, reshuffle the remaining River Tiles, and then continue to draw and play.  When the river is finished, the next player plays the "set aside" Lake Tile.

What do you think?  I know this is beating a small issue to death, but I'm a sucker for minutiae.

As an aside:  Is that true, you can place other special pieces on the volcano tile?  Really?  So, if you're playing with the Dragon, I know you can't place followers...but you can place a pig?  Anything else?  A barn?
And I'm not sure what the ruling on the volcano piece is if you're using it without the dragon.  I know the rules say the volcano has no special significance in that case, but I would imagine you still have to abide by the rule that you cannot place a follower, and that you then get to draw again.  But maybe not?  Is there an official ruling on this point?  I don't know if the phrase "no special significance" means you just play it as a normal tile and ignore the special characteristics of the volcano tile, or if it just means not to worry about the dragon, but still abide by the "no followers" rule.

[Borderking]

Also, if the ruling is made that when playing River I and River II without the volcano, the Original Lake Tile only is set aside, and the City/Lake Tile is mixed in with the River tiles (which seems like a simple solution if made official), I would imagine you COULD place a follower on that final Lake tile (unlike with the volcano).  That would require a significant rule change if it weren't the case.  I understand the motivation, but that would certainly need an explicit change to the rules.

[Scott]

In the case of substituting the normal lake for the volcano/lake, I think the normal lake should be set aside and placed last just as the volcano/lake is placed last, and the city/lake is mixed with the river as usual. The normal lake is taking the place of the volcano lake in the game. Since followers may be deployed on the normal lake tile, no extra tile is drawn.

According to the rules, exactly one lake tile is set aside, so that discounts options 4 and 5.

I love discussing minutae too, and if it weren't for this, I never would have noticed that the city/lake is supposed to be mixed with the river.

Builders and pigs become permissible for deployment on volcano tiles when the Big Box came out. Since they are no longer followers, they are not subject to the rule that followers cannot be deployed on volcanos. See footnote 73 in the Annotated Rules (page 32). Since the barn is not a follower, I suspect it may also be placed on a volcano, provided the conditions for barn placement have been met.

There's no official ruling regarding the volcano/lake beyond the "no special significance" statement. We need something more explicit, but obviously there are two possible rulings here:
#1) player may not deploy follower, draw another tile
#2) player may deploy a follower, do not draw another tile
Drawing another tile cannot be permitted if follower deployment is allowed, since the drawing of the extra tile is intended to make up for not being able to deploy on the volcano. "No special significance" could merely refer to the dragon not being summoned and the regular rule regarding follower placement on volcanos may still apply. If pigs and builders were still considered followers, this would be a non-issue, but because a pig can be deployed on a volcano, this could give the player who places the volcano/lake tile an advantage if the tile is connected to his/her farm. When playing with the dragon, this would be less of an advantage since the dragon is likely to eat their farmer.

[Borderking]

Yes, this is a strange circumstance now, playing with the volcano, without the dragon, but with builders and pigs.  Hmmm...you're right, the way I read the rules, the player who places the volcano is going to get a slight advantage of having the option to place a pig, and then getting to draw and place another tile with possible deployments.

Thanks for the clarification on the River...I didn't realize the rules explicitly stated that only one lake tile must be set aside?  In that case, it does seem logical that it would be the Original Lake Tile, which can be thought of as replacing the volcano.  Although, it doesn't perfectly satisfy...since the whole purpose in mandating that the volcano gets placed last is because of the special characteristics of the volcano tile, characteristics that the Original Lake Tile does not share.

Perhaps the City/Lake Tile couldn't (or shouldn't) go last because then when the youngest player decides who goes first (or places the fork himself), it will be predetermined who is going to get the City/Lake tile based on the number of available River tiles.  And people like to make cities.

Mixing the City/Lake Tile in with the River tiles is a simple and reasonable solution, and it's probably the best option without an official explanation in the rules.

[Joff]

I'm a new player to the world of Carcassonne. I was perusing the forum and happened upon this thread. I apologise if this has been answered before but, what would be the problems with starting the game with the river branch tile, mixing lake and city/lake tile in with the rest of the river tiles. The spring tile being set aside for the last play. This would provide a choice of three possible plays on the first go (depending on what tile was drawn, obviously).

[Scott]

Welcome!

Starting from the branch would usually mean the spring would end up farther away from it. I haven't personally tried this, but the thought has crossed my mind. I think it would affect the size of farms, but I'm not sure whether it would be an improvement or detriment. I encourage play-testing and reporting back with the results.