Fighters & Scholars

[edmil]

One of the things I find difficult to swallow is working on a city or road only to have your opponent wipe you out through the luck of the draw. My thoughts turned to equalizing the situation without taking everything away from the game.  Maddie says strategy not luck of the draw!  - I vehemently disagree

In life you can create your own luck through developing skills and education so I figure why not in Carcassonne.  Farmers, Knights, Monks can train themselves to become better fighters and therefore stand a better chance of defeating a dragon. They can educate themselves and maybe talk their way out of the stocks or the gallows (stocks & gallows variants)

Additional Requirements

12 double sided level tokens   (1 side shows level, 1 side shows level retention)
12 training tokens
1 dice


The game

My thought was that you use a dice to:

      1: develop a level and
      2: determine the outcome of the confrontation be it dragon, tower or any other nasty.


Here's how it works:

Meeples can be at one of 4 levels:   0, 1, 2, or 3

0 - is the standard meeple and 3 - is the strongest, most intelligent etc

You may only progress through each level i.e you cannot go from level 0 to level 2 or 3 in one turn.

Levels are gained through attending training or schooling therefore trying to 'level up' is done in lieu of moving the wood.


I have used a city as an example but city can be interchanged with road, Cloister, Farm, River, Forest (if using variants) etc

Process:

1. Draw & place tile
2. perform any actions or Score any completed features as in rules
3. In lieu of placing any follower attempt to level up

The player rolls the dice and requires a roll of a 1 or 2 to level up. If 4- 6 is rolled then player has failed exam and remains in training
Players will automatically level up after the 2nd attempt  (i.e. 3 turns)

Example 1
Player 1
1. player draws and plays
2. Scoring and/or action completed as normal rules
3. Decides to try for level up on meeple in expanding city and rolls a 4
4. Meeple remains in training  (could place a small token under meeple to indicate training)
5. play moves on to next player
6. On next turn player 1 again draws and plays
7. Scoring and/or action completed as normal rules
8. Decides to go for level up on meeple in expanding city as meeple is in training it is automatically promoted a level.(could place a small token under meeple to indicate level)

Example 2
Player 2
1. player draws and plays
2. Scoring and/or action completed as normal rules
3. Decides to try for level up on meeple in expanding city and rolls a 1
4. Meeple is promoted to level 1  (could place a small token under meeple to indicate level)
5. play moves on to next player

Retention of Level
A meeple does not retain its status forever. It can take a long time to complete a city so one can hardly expect the same meeple to be part of every city building (could be a generation apart). Therefore:

When a feature of more than 5 tiles is completed the meeple returns to the players supply and returns to level 0 (when a cloister is completed the monk will always return at level 0)

When a feature that has less than 5 tiles is closed then the Meeple is returned to the players supply at level (but only once) (token could be turned over to indicate that 1 use remains)  this meeple can be returned to another feature at level.


The result

When a confrontation occurs whether or not the players meeple is captured, eaten, placed in stocks etc is determined by 'lady luck' the roll of a dice.

If the player is level 0 then result is as it would be in normal play
for level 1, 2 & 3 the result is determined by

Level 1: a roll of 1 or 2 saves the meeple
Level 2: a roll of 1- 3 saves meeple
Level 3: a roll of 1-4 saves meeple

Level 3 does not completely immune a meeple from consequences as in life even the best can fall.

Note: Between level, i.e in training, has no effect so if a level 1 meeple is training for level 2 he is still considered  level 1 at the time.

If the meeple is survives to live another day play continues.

Some anticipated questions

Can a wagon be leveled up?
Yes, a wagon can be built stronger have more armor etc

Can a meeple on a tower be leveled up?
Yes

Can a mayor or big follower be leveled up?
Yes, as for normal followers

Can a builder or pig be leveled up?
not directly but as they come under the protection of the meeples associated with it if  a meeple associated with the builder or pig is leveled then it comes to their assistance and the consequences that befall the builder or pig are determined by the roll of the dice

Does leveling up also impact on the seduction by the princess?
Yes, any action which may result in the removal of meeple from play is determined by the roll of the dice when leveled up

Is the dragon killed in the conflict with a leveled up meeple?
No, just scared off to another tile, play continues as though meeple was not there. e.g if dragon has landed on tile after 3 moves then it continues with the remaining 3 moves

Do levels have any impact on scoring of completed features?
No leveling up only impacts on actions which may result in the removal of meeple from play

Do levels impact on the majority in the City?
Yes level 2=1.5 followers, level 3=2 followers

Is there any change to scoring at the end of the game?
No

If you are playing with Gallows and Stocks variations can a meeple who escapes the gallows be placed in the stocks?
A good question, this would be worth considering a player talks their way out of the Gallows but must spend time in the stocks - in fact let's make it that way, however the stocks must be in the same city prior to the placement of the Gallows

If a player loses a conflict and is returned to it's player stock is it returned at level?
If the feature was more than 5 tiles at time of conflict then no,  If less than 5 tiles then yes as per level retention

How many tiles does a tower count as?
1 + 2 for each storey of the tower. e.g. a 2 storey tower will count as 5 tiles

If playing with Dragon slayer variants does the level have an impact?
I haven't played or read the variant so am open to suggestions.  Maybe there is an adjustment but my initial thought is play as per the Dragon slayer Variant and ignore the level


Some variations on the variation

Maybe we could add some special tiles that could speed up the training process.  E.g. A training arena/library  in the city, A training camp/library by a road,  etc.
When the tile is placed in the city the player has the option of moving the meeple to the tile and immediately leveling up on next turn


This is my first attempt at a Variation and look forward to the  discussion it may generate.

(Note I only started with the Carcassonne less than a  month ago so I may have missed a few things.  I have been through the variant registry and didn't come up with anything similar)

Go for it.

[edmil]

I have made some changes to the original posting.

Name of Extension: Fighters & Scholars.

Followers at level 2 or 3 will now impact on the count towards the majority of a feature;  level 2 =1.5 followers, level 3= 2 followers there is no change is scoring either during or at the end of the game as a result of a leveled follower.

I have drafted a rules guide using the same format used in final pdfs. and will post when I know how.

I am looking at including some extra tiles, am having a go at designing.

[Novelty]

I'll quote Scott who said:

Dice feels out of place to me, but I'm not opposed to the idea.

It would be better if there were no dice used, but that would mean getting more creative with the "randomness".  Since what you're after is a yes/no type decision, why not flip a coin (or a tile?) instead?

Also, the meeple is placed before scoring in the normal rules... does this break out of the normal rules by moving the levelling after scoring?

[edmil]

It would be better if there were no dice used, but that would mean getting more creative with the "randomness".  Since what you're after is a yes/no type decision, why not flip a coin (or a tile?) instead?

A yes/no type of decision but one where the odds are improved as the level advances.
I looked at the option used in the dragon slayer variant where tiles are drawn and the idea has merits however I felt that the dice were a little more economical given that it would be used in both training and in conflict.

If there is overwhelming dissent about the use of the dice then I will concede and look at alternate means. (Shuffling and drawing from six special cards could achieve the same thing as a dice)

Also, the meeple is placed before scoring in the normal rules... does this break out of the normal rules by moving the levelling after scoring?

How right you are.  I should have clarified better.  No the extension will not be breaking away from the rules.  If a player decides to place a meeple then training/ levelling up cannot occur on that turn. Training is done instead of 'moving the wood'. If player decides to train then no other action like moving the fairy can take place. However if a dragon tile was drawn then the dragon moves before any decision to train occurs.

Thanks it's good to get some feedback was getting a bit worried that no one was interested.

My better half felt that the title should be Knights & Scholars (Kn&S) as it rolls of the tongue a little better and fits more with the theme. - I agree.

I have a Draft of the rules and play, somewhat different to the initial post, in a 6 page word document that is set out in the same fashion as the rules for the final variant, but need to get it onto the forum for viewing and comment. Do you have any suggestions for getting this done quickly.

[jalle]

You can upload it onto your website (most have one),
and link to it from your post.

[Novelty]

If you don't have a website, you could sign up for one like geocities, or just post at a file sharing site (like the one Scott uses).

[scotty13]

I really like this idea.  Bringing dice into Carcassonne is a nice addon for me.  Can't wait to see it finished.

[edmil]

I have managed to get the draft expansion rules to the google site.  The rules and play runs to seven pages and are in Microsoft Word (compatibility mode).

You may download the document using this link: Knights & Scholars

The name changed to Knights and Scholars as my other half, Maddie, thought the name rolled off the tongue better and was more in line with the game.  Your thoughts on the most appropriate name would be good. - Fighters & scholars or Knights & Scholars?

It took me a while to figure out how to get the link working but finally managed it.

The document is a pretty comprehensive draft of the rules and game play.  Hopefully I have anticipated a lot of the questions and interpreted the rules (according to CAR) correctly, but considering that I am a newcomer to Carcassonne I may have missed something.

Feel free to ask questions or highlight any errors or misinterpretations. This is work in progress so I'm looking to all you experienced (and inexperienced players) to give it a good going over.

I am on the process of designing the tiles. I am not sure how many would be a good number - maybe that's a question for you guys.

Looking forward to your thoughts

[Scott]

I don't want people to feel discouraged from trying to add dice to Carc. It feels out of place only because it's rarely been done, and only unofficially. If you've got an idea brewing and dice would be perfect, run with it and see. Trying to add dice for the sake of adding dice is maybe not the best approach.

Here's an example where dice could be added to P&D: rolling to see how many spaces the dragon will move. Could be particularly useful in games with more than 6 players.

[edmil]

I have uploaded a further draft of Knights & Scholars expansion. it can be downloaded here: KnightsnScholarsv2.doc.

The document now contains images of the new tiles and tokens - not to scale. I will upload these once the expansion has been pulled apart and then finalised.

I have made considerable changes to the original document and game play.

Now two levels rather than 3 (this cuts down on the number of tokens required -just far too many and helps with speeding up the play)
I have added outcome tiles instead of a dice (I have left the option of the dice in though)

Brief overview of Expansion:

This is very brief there are 10 pages in the rules document which should answer the majority of questions.

12 Training landscape tiles (small Icon added to tiles)
6 outcome tiles
12 double sided level tokens
18 double sided 'in-training' tokens

Up to 3 Followers can be trained to two levels either by drawing a training successful tile (outcome tile) or placing a new training tile.
Followers who are unsuccessful in being trained are placed 'in-training'
Trained followers increase their majority of a feature. level 1 is +1 follower and Level 2 is +2 followers
Outcome cards are drawn to see the result of a conflict or confrontation e.g eaten by dragon, sent to the gallows etc

Training landscape tiles add 5 point bonus to completed features.

[Novelty]

I haven't had the time to read through the whole document yet, but here are some comments:

1. This is a mini-expansion?  Some of the official main expansions have less "stuff" than this.  I would call this an expansion!
2. It would read better if the text were justified.
3. I think there is something missing from the first sentence of "Required Expansions" because I don't understand what exactly it is trying to say.

I like the alternative to dice as well although I haven't read that far down yet.  Keep up the good work!

[edmil]

I have now uploaded an updated version (pdf) of the rules and game play for the Fighters & scholars expansion. I have now included a pdf of the new tiles (redesigned since the last rules version was updated).

Pending any requests to modify this should be a final version and the layout of the pdf should reflect this.

Here are the links to the files:

Fighters & Scholars.pdf
Fighters & scholars tiles v1.pdf

If you have any comments or recommendations feel free to post.

I have included the use of a dice as an alternative to using the outcome tiles. Though I have found that using the outcome tiles is more fun and easier to remember than the dice.

[Novelty]

The tiles look good.  One comment though - whatever graphic editor you're using, look for the "blur" tool and use it to run around the edges of the sand bits that are sitting on the grass so that it blends in better.

I'll try to find some time to read the rules sometime this weekend.

[edmil]

Thanks for that Novelty, I will give the Blur tool, (if I can find it) a shot. Very new to this graphic editing stuff and definitely not an artist.

Hopefully everything is covered in the rules, which pans out to about 10 pages.

It's nice to get in completed, well nearly, my wife gets me back from the computer  

[Novelty]

Here's my comments:

* I think there's some grammar or punctuation mistakes in this (I have no idea how to correct it):

Fighters and Scholars is designed to be played with Carcassonne where an expansion that removes followers from play; either through killing, imprisonment or capture or seduction, is included this includes official expansions such as ‘The Princess and the Dragon’, ‘The Tower’ and ‘The Catapult’ and fan made expansions/variants such as: ‘The Gallows’ and ‘The Stocks’.

* Moving the wood needs to be explained, as this term is not used in any of the official Carc rules.

* I don't think a follower can occupy the same square as the dragon.  If the follower wins the conflict against the dragon on the same tile, what happens to the follower?  Do you check for the conflict at every step since the dragon is still on the tile?

* I don't see this, but if a level 1 or 2 follower is successfully captured by a player from the tower, what happens to the training?  I presume the follower loses the training, but I don't see that in the rules.

* Can wagons, which are followers be trained?

* Can the barn, builder or pig, which are not followers, be trained?

* How about a new fan-made expansion that has a ship follower.  Can it be trained?

* What happens when the mayor gets trained?  Does it have the +1 or +2 bonus even in a city with no pennants?

* If a follower that has trained is moved to another tile, does the training move with it?

* If I'm exchanging (e.g. Catapult) a follower with training for another follower, does the new follower retain the training?

* How many points does a trained farmer gets per city, if it is removed by a barn during play?

* Can "neutral" figures like the fairy, etc. be trained?

* (I think I read this in the rules, but can't find it again...) Can a follower in the City of Carcassonne be trained?

Thanks for including me in the acknowledgements.  Personally I think this expansion strays too far from Carc's basic mechanics (and premise) of tile and meeple placement, so it's not for me and I doubt I'd be making it.  That and the fact that it would take time to "interupt" the game for training is a minus in my book.  However, having said that, it does have a heavy RPG element, and it might be attractive to someone else other than me.  After all, the fact that it's being made shows that at least 1 person likes it.  That's why I'm supportive (in my own way) of it.  I'm looking forward to the updated images and rules.

BTW, there's a lot of "blank space" in the rules document, which increases its length.  Perhaps those could be eliminated to shorten the document some?