Farms

[likie]

This is really a strategy/general post on Farmers.

I have read some strategy advice elsewhere that says that the creation of huge farms (and the resultant competition for them) is in fact not good play.  What do you guys think of this advice?   

Our games with Basic, River I and I&C often seem to end up with one large central farm - normally I end up on the winning side of this so probably shouldn't complain, however I'm not necessarily sure this is a good thing.  What have others experiences been? - particularly with just these expansions.  Do you have any tips for ensuring that a big farm doesn't eventuate?

I have played T&B as well and realise this has a few more odd tiles (and cities) that make splitting up farms easier - so perhaps once we buy this we won't get the central farm "problem" - if it is in fact a problem!

By the way - on farmers - I was wondering what rules others used for them? - we started off with the RG box rules but are now using the German 3rd Edition rules, which seem simpler, easier to explain to new players and generally less hassle.

[mjharper]

I wouldn't say that it was 'bad play' to create large farms - but if an expansion lends itself to the creation of large farms, then it's flawed. A bit like cities - there's absolutely nothing wrong with creating a 90 point city - every so often. But if it keeps happening because of the expansions you're using, then it focuses the game on that single feature too much, and leads to run away winners.

One thing I like about using the expansions is that they offer multiple ways to win the game; if winning always comes down to who owns the mega-farm, then the game has lost something.

As far as your expansions are concerned, The River is often criticised for leading to large farms - mainly because of the spring tile and the lake tile, on which the farm clearly goes around the river parts. The River II tries to solve the problem with the lake tiles - for example, by having the lake run onto a city - and the GQ expansion divides the farm on the spring by adding a road. If you can get hold of either of these, it wouldn't be a bad idea.

One thing I've learned: under no circumstances should you create multiple rivers, no matter how may river sets you have. Mega-farms almost always ensue. Cloisters are another culprit, since they are often surrounded by just farms, or have a single road leading  to the building. And yes, the later expansions do tend to break up the farms a bit more, especially as far as cloisters are concerned.

I think 3rd edition rules are simpler too, and my policy is to recommend that people use them. After all, not one single expansion was designed to be played with the 1st edition rules that RGG still uses. And scoring farms in a game of mega-Carc (all expansions) must be a nightmare using 1st edition rules. But farmer scoring is still the most controversial issue for Carcassonne, so I'll stop now…

[Gantry]

I agree totally with Matt's 2nd paragraph ("if winning always comes down to who owns the mega-farm, then the game has lost something"), which is true for any game.  Strategic advice is only as good as the situations in which it leads to a win.  The best advice can't substitute for a keen eye and the ability to switch your tactics at any point in a game when things may not be going your way.

(BTW I use the 3rd Edition rules myself so my comments reflect this) If I see a large unowned farm, I try to take it.  Let's say it services 5 cities or more, I'd consider that a large farm.  What I won't do is try to get into a battle, sacrificing multiple farmers just to have that large farm.  Instead, if I end up losing it, I'll concentrate near the end of the game on securing a number of small farms (I usually focus on unowned 3- and 2-city farms).  It is not uncommon for me to have 5 farmers at the end of the game, most of them placed within the last 10 tiles drawn.  David Peterson's Strategy Guide (the latest version is in the Articles section) suggests that you "Create Large Farms", but that has to be balanced with being flexible enough to take advantage of smaller farms if you don't have the advantage of establishing a larger one.

[Tobias]

Seems that me and Gantry have the same basic strategy 

As have been said already GQ11 Expansion has the best tile in the game: the spring with the road.

[likie]

Thanks guys - I suspect things will change a bit once we get T&B and I might also try and get the River 2 (although the rivers don't do much - we haven't played the fishermen rules yet - they look quite cool across the table).

As I said it is not me that usually has the problem with the large farms (I normally seem to claim them!).  The last game we played was a little different in that we both had a reasonable farm each (maybe 5 cities) and didn't bother to compete much for them, but I also scored a couple of late farms (of 2 cities and 3 cities) - much like gantry's strategy - once I had freed a few meeples up from cloisters etc.  I ended up with a reasonably comfortable win, which pleased me as I was keen to win without having a mega-farm - wouldn't want to be a one-trick pony. 

[SteveBme]

I recommend that you add T&B and River II. These add a variety of tiles with more roads and river crossings. This has helped our games to be more balanced by adding scoring options (the trade goods), tactics (like completing a castle to get those trade goods), the builder (for extra turns) and best by reduced their being any clear winning strategy involving farms.
The inclusion of the GQ11 tiles is a great way to help separate the farms.
We have spent all our recent games playing with the above added to the Basic game, the River and I&C.
This is where I have found the game balance has been at its best. It is with the inclusion of a variety of options that the game has become better.

[likie]

Yes - thanks for this - I have got T&B now.  Haven't yet added it to the mix - with a new baby our brains are not quite functioning correctly due to less sleep than normal - my wife particularly is not that keen to introduce it until she feels more on top of things.  I agree that it should balance up the game nicely though - I have played T&B previously (but without I&C) and I thought that city based strategies tended to dominate - with I&C also in the mix (giving more road and farm areas) I can see that it will be well balanced.

River II doesn't seem to be readily available where I live but will track it down eventually.  I should really get the GQ tiles - but might have to stow them in the cupboard for a while yet.

[Hypnotoad]

I&C + T&B pretty much feels like the base game for us now.

We've added River I&II as well as the GQ expansion, and that's what most of our games look like presently.
It doesn't take too long, it's not *too* offensive, and it's quite pleasant to play.

And yes, we play the GQ tile as a neutral pig farm as well

[likie]

We added T&B the other night for a 3-player session with my brother.  I really enjoyed it - many more options and possibilities - and yes the farmers did not dominate (not in my view anyway - the others may disagree -  I managed to score more farms than anyone and won by 20 points or so - we didn't have any megafarms at least)

I am keen to play again anyhow - my wife maybe less so - she has twice played T&B now and twice got the builder trapped (on her first deployment of the builder on each occasion) on a road she couldn't add to or complete.

[Hypnotoad]

20 points isn't much in the end, so I'd agree with you that the farmers can't have dominated too much.

And you quickly learn not to attack the beginners too much, wait 'til they're too hooked to quit, then trap their builders in never ending city projects