Wagon + completed feature & deploying

[dwhitworth]

@Scott, here is the issue in a (rather large) nutshell ..

Is the scoring sequence:

1. Tile-placing player selects one of the completed features to score
2. Take turns around the table moving meeples from City of Carc to that feature (if you wish and rules otherwise allow)
3. Determine majorities, determine fairy bonus, resolve cloister/shrine challenges, calculate scores for that feature and move markers
4. Move any wagon(s) on that feature - resolving multiple wagons by turns as per rules.
5. Player selects the next feature and repeat from step 2

OR is it:

First: Take turns around the table moving meeples from City of Carc to any or all scoring features resulting from the placement of the tile (if you wish and rules otherwise allow). This would occur rather like the way it is described in the rules for the end of the game.

1. Tile-placing player selects feature to score
2. Determine majorities, determine fairy bonus, resolve cloister/shrine challenges, calculate scores for that feature and move markers
3. Select next feature and repeat from step 1

Last: Move any wagon(s) on the features - resolving multiple wagons by turns as per rules.

It rarely makes sense to do the scoring in such rigid order in actual play, but when the issue arises we use the first five-step method - for the reasons given in my post.

With that approach wagon movement can be tactically manipulated by the placing player choosing one order of scoring over another - forcing another player to move or remove a wagon and leaving himself with a better wagon move in the second feature chosen.

The Count stuff hardly makes any difference except when there are a lot of meeples  in Carc city and the multiple features to be scored have contests going or a big meeple subtlety placed etc. But if those conditions apply then it can make a big difference.

And it might matter even more one day in another expansion . . . 

[mdjvz]

@Dwhitworth: I missed the FAQ

“The dragon eats everything within its reach (on its tile), regardless of whether it moves, is deployed or simply stands there.”

But in that case it seems quote stupid, that you are allowed to place a pig or builder on a just placed vulcano tile (a it gets eaten immediately... )

@Scott: I cannot think of an example where it makes a difference when the wagon movement is done, within ór after the feature scoring, So I guess this point is merely an esthetic one..

@Scott: here an example where it DOES make difference when the carcassonne deplyment is done: Player A finishes 2 cities with a Tile (for simplicity lets say with no followers), Player A has 1 follower in the Castle of Carc. Player B has 3 followers. If the players use the end-of-game procedures 1st. Player B will be able to get a majority in both cities(1-0 and 2-1). However when the deployment is done on feature basis, he is able to share at least 1 city! If player B puts 1 one follower from carcassonne on the 1st feature, A can equal this and share points, otherwise he can equal on the 2nd feature!

[Scott]

Thanks for the explanations guys!

Regarding the Count expansion, if you look at the rules for follower deployment to and from Carcassonne, under the bold text "How does that work in practice?", at the end of the first paragraph: "Then scoring continues as usual." This indicates to me that the scoring sequence is the first one that dwhitworth described, where deployment is per feature.

It bothers me a little bit that in version 4.0 of the CAR, right after the rules say that followers are deployed to the feature being scored, there's a footnote which says followers can be deployed to empty features too. It seems contradictory, as if the footnote is misplaced, but then it is mentioned again in another footnote regarding end of game, which is a clue that the footnote is in the right place after all. I would take this to mean that you can deploy followers to the feature being scored or to an empty feature, but not to an occupied feature which will be scored a few seconds from now?

Regarding wagon movement, the rules for the wagon state that the wagon is moved after the feature is scored, not after all features are scored. This also points to the first scoring sequence. I'm still a little confused about "leaving himself with a better wagon move in the second feature chosen". According to the rules, the wagon can only move to features which are both incomplete and unoccupied, so the wagon can't move to any feature that will be scored during the same turn. I do, however, understand how the placing player could force his opponent to remove their wagon. For example, the placing player lays a T-intersection road tile. Two of the three roads are occupied by a wagon; the third is unoccupied and incomplete. The placing player is able to move his wagon to the third road, forcing the other player to remove his wagon or move it elsewhere.

[dwhitworth]

@mdjvz - I have been trying to think of situations where the sequence of scoring would make a difference for wagons. It seems to me that since the tile-placing player moves his/her wagon first then there is little difference in most situations. I can think of places where I may want to force you to move your wagon first – even if that meant me giving up a large uncompleted feature – maybe I need to know your strategy and the sacrifice is worth it. But these situations are probably very infrequent and rather subtle.

However, given the importance of relative scoring, there may be times when I want one of my opponents to have an advantage – namely the one wo has a lower score than me, and maybe at the same time penalize another player with a higher score.

Suppose I lay a tile that completes two roads and that two of my opponents have their wagons placed one on each of those roads. (since I have no wagon in this scenario you must assume I have some decent reason for laying the tile.) Furthermore suppose that those roads both terminate in the same large incomplete city (say one cleared by the dragon). The opponent who moves his/her wagon first has the chance to occupy that city. If one of those opponents has a very low score and the other is ahead of me, I might want to allow the low score opponent the chance to move his/her wagon first. I can do this if features (the roads in this case)  are scored one at a time and I can choose the order of scoring. If all features are scored first and then wagon movement takes place in sequence around the table, the higher scoring player might get the first choice of the city by coming first in the table order.

This kind of situation is probably very rare, but it would make a difference.

[mdjvz]

So even with the Wagon, it matters :

I guess it is worth a Question to HiG in the next round of questions

[dwhitworth]

Yes I think we should send this one to HiG next time

So here is Scott's "trigger word" for searches so we can find it "next time" 

Tiberius

[Jambo]

Given the way the rules say the player placing the tile moves his or her wagon first, I'd say that all scoring would be perfomed before respective wagons are moved. 

Likewise, with the Count, all players would place their followers from Carcassonne before the scoring begins.