Cult, war and creativity

[Novelty]

Do the seige tiles get their own entry, or does it get combined with Cathars? (I'm leaning towards combined.) And what of the blank tiles? Not worthy of their own page...

I'm inclined towards it being separate for the siege tiles because that's the "new" part of the expansion and by new I mean new features on the tiles.  (Yes, there's also a new cult/shrine tile, but that has no new rules or features apart from what has already been revealed).

Otherwise, I agree with you Scott.  Point back to Koenig, Graf & Kulstuetten for the shrine tiles, and ignore the rules for the blank tiles (but mention about the blank tiles in the tile list sections).

[Scott]

Hmm... the abbey tiles were not included in the tile distribution lists, so I don't expect the blank ones would fit there either. Hard to classify considering they have no features.

[mjharper]

Do the seige tiles get their own entry, or does it get combined with Cathars? (I'm leaning towards combined.) And what of the blank tiles? Not worthy of their own page...

I'm inclined towards it being separate for the siege tiles because that's the "new" part of the expansion and by new I mean new features on the tiles.  (Yes, there's also a new cult/shrine tile, but that has no new rules or features apart from what has already been revealed).

Otherwise, I agree with you Scott.  Point back to Koenig, Graf & Kulstuetten for the shrine tiles, and ignore the rules for the blank tiles (but mention about the blank tiles in the tile list sections).

I agree with Scott that they're not worth a new page, but the 'separate' structure is the one the rules have followed so far. Even if all the entry says is that the rules are given in other sections, I would still want to include the tile distribution list… But when I see the tiles & rules etc. properly I'll have a better idea of how to proceed.

[Wishmaster]

The 2 blank tiles.... is that ALL they are? There's no rules for their use etc? Bit of a waste that if you ask me. Surely if you are going to make blank tiles available then justwo is a bit... well..... crap. Would be better to sell a die cut sheet of 12 as a completely seperate unit surely?

[henrysunset]

The "correct" way to address this in my mind is to have one entry per individually playable expansion.  Thus we have seperate expansion entries called: "The Cult", one called "The Siege / Cathars" and nothing for "creativity" etc...

We have several "Expansions":
- The entry for "the cult" will need to detail that there are three sources for these tiles, HiG's "cult, king & consort", RGG's "cult, siege & creativity" & Spielbox's "Die Kultstätten".  Also call out that the RGG release includes a 6'th tile.
- "the siege" has two releases: Spielbox's 2004 "Die Katharer" and RGG's 2008 "cult, siege & creativity"

Then, on BGG or here we describe the following compilations of expansions:
- the "cult, king & consort" entry should be described as a compilation of mini expansions: "the cult", "the river II", "the count" and "the king"
- the "cult, siege & creativity" entry should be described as a compilation too.

This way, MJHarper can upload the rules for each independent expansion on a different page.  I can include a tuckbox for each expansion rather than each compilation.

[canada steve]

OK guys here is the low down..................Its a rip off if you already have the Cathars. Honestly this set adds nothing to the game unless you dont have Cathars.

Firstly the tiles are produced in a different color scheme which means that look very different to the rest of the game, there is no marking like A&M on them either. Second thing we noticed is the problem with the rules (probably suffers in the translation process again) where they make quotes like you cannot place a cult tile next to several cloisters, now several in english is more than three !! Also came across a problem in playing where there was one cult and one cloister diagonal from each other and I had a space to add a further cloister to give me nine points (no challenge as no meeple on other tiles) however because of the rule issue above we could agree if this was a legal placement or not.

The cloister/cult challenge is different. If you place either a cloister or cult next to each other and the tile already down has a monk/cultist on it then you issue a challenge and the first one to surround their tile gets the nine points where the other player gets zip.

Blank tiles are just and dont add anything to the game.

The siege tiles are slightly different as they depict a siege, with siege engines whereas the Cathars shows men and a broken wall, but apart from that the rules and scoring for this are exactly the same.

So not really worth them producing it, but if you like to ensure you have everything for the game then its only a few pounds, drachma, rubbles etc to shell out so not a vast ripoff.

[Wishmaster]

If you've been quick off the mark in the past, then yes I see where you're going with the 'it's a rip-off bit. However, as of late there has been so much confusion over what's in what box I've (for once) held back a bit and not bought anything Carcassonne since Abbey and Mayor. From that angle this little box of tricks comes along as a bargain. I end up with the cult tiles for pretty much half the price as the magazine with an extra tile to boot, don't have ti buy a box with Count, River and King for a second time, get the new seige tiles (OK I've got Cathars but now get the new design) and two free blanks (albeit pretty useless). Now that is pretty good for such a low price and buy no means a rip-off.

Regards the seige and Cathars thing - I'd have thought several people here would be singing from the roof tops. The price of the Cathars on eBay over the past couple of years has gone through the roof - upwards of £30.00 for 4 tiles, and people here have been posting for where they could get hem etc....... so why are we having a downer on it when what everyone wanted is finally released?

[Joff]

And if you have got both sets, you might feel inclined to use my new variant, Invasion of Catharism, available in the Variant thread (shameless plug )

[Bixby]

I am very pleased with the release of the siege tiles.

The blank tiles are kind of gimicky, I feel that someone nailed it on these forums earlier; blank tiles would have been of higher value if they came in a sheet and people could buy as few or as many sheets as they wanted. Two tiles is a bit silly.

The cult tiles came as a surprise to me. I ordered some of the Spielbox cult tiles so now I feel a bit bummed by that.

The catapult is just simply ridiculous.

Overall, they have created a ton of confusion and in many ways alienated the fan base for Carcassonne. I am a process improvement specialist and a project manager by trade and it offends me when things get overly complex. It would appear no body is at the helm steering the vision of Carcassonne. Complexity is failed simplicity, and they have made this much more complex and confusing than it needs to be. I have decided I no longer need to be a Carcassonne completist and will focus more on reading, printing, and playing variants in the variant registry on this site.

The future of this game lies with the fan base in my opinion. Carcassonne Central is much more organized and progressive than the original game creator / distribution channels.

/end rant

[Joff]

The catapult is just simply ridiculous.

Overall, they have created a ton of confusion and in many ways alienated the fan base for Carcassonne. I am a process improvement specialist and a project manager by trade and it offends me when things get overly complex. It would appear no body is at the helm steering the vision of Carcassonne. Complexity is failed simplicity, and they have made this much more complex and confusing than it needs to be. I have decided I no longer need to be a Carcassonne completist and will focus more on reading, printing, and playing variants in the variant registry on this site.

The future of this game lies with the fan base in my opinion. Carcassonne Central is much more organized and progressive than the original game creator / distribution channels.

/end rant

Although I will continue to be a Carcassonne completist, I want to emphasise a point made by Novelty on the other thread: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=372.15

I wonder if any of us making fan-variants are actually hurting future expansions.  What do I mean?  Any fan-made expansion, contains an idea, and if it is published online, although the owner of the idea does not own the right to Carc, or the tiles or the game or whatever, he/she is the originator of the idea.  Therefore, if HiG/RGG were to use this idea and not compensate (e.g. pay) the originator of the idea, they would probably be liable to lawsuits, etc. etc.  (Note: liable doesn't = will get sued.)  Hence HiG/RGG has to start thinking of weirder and weirder ideas for their expansions since they can't use any that have been mentioned online in whatever form.

I guess I'm going to stop posting my variants ideas for now, although I would still continue commenting on the variant ideas of others.  Comments?

Of course, I don't want anybody, including Novelty, to stop. However, he does have a valid point. There are many fan made variants/expansions that could easily be considered worthy (and sometimes better than those that are official) to have a place as an official expansion in its own right. In my opinion, if there is a stand-out-from-the-crowd fan made variant/expansion then HiG/RGG should fund the originator and get it produced, instead of the rotten rubbish that probably is the Catapult (mind you, we have not had the chance to actually play it yet!). It makes economic sense for HiG/RGG, and rewards the person that put in time, effort, loyalty and thought.

[crasher]

Having not seen the rules for Siege myself I have one question.

Do they allow a knight in the city to escape via a cloister?

If not there is a minor difference from The Cathars.

-crasher

[Novelty]

Carcassonne Central is much more organized and progressive than the original game creator / distribution channels.

Heh, we have to get more organised because it's so confusing out there.  Basically 2 companies are controlling the product, HiG in Europe and RGG in North America and both of them don't seem to agree as to what is to be done (i.e. reprints count/no count, extra shrine tile, etc.).  Add to that other distribution outlets (Games Quarterly, Spielbox), spin-offs (New World/Mayflower) and things get confusing quickly.

I have to say I like the 2 blank tiles.  But that shouldn't be a surprise from me.  Get another 2 more of those tiles and I could print out Cathars and stick them to get my own set of Cathars.

I like the siege tiles.  It means I can play with the Cathar rules eventhough I don't have the Cathar tiles... at least until I get my 2nd box of C,S&C.

I'm pleased with this expansion overall.  I'm glad I don't have to get the german version with a second copy of count & river2.  The only issue I have with this expansion is that there is no watermark, but I can live with that.

Do they allow a knight in the city to escape via a cloister?

I haven't seen the rules as well, but from what I was told the answer is yes.  The rules simply swapped out "Cathar tiles" for "siege tiles"

[Scott]

If anybody is upset about having both Cathars and Siege in their possession, I'll gladly take the Cathars tiles off your hands.

I'm also disappointed about the direction things are headed, but hopefully it's just temporary insanity.

[henrysunset]

Regards the seige and Cathars thing - I'd have thought several people here would be singing from the roof tops. The price of the Cathars on eBay over the past couple of years has gone through the roof - upwards of £30.00 for 4 tiles, and people here have been posting for where they could get hem etc....... so why are we having a downer on it when what everyone wanted is finally released?

two reasons in my mind...

1. some of us were the ones who spent a lot to get the "impossible" tiles.  Making them cheap makes us feel less special.
2. the art looks incredibly confusing.  The Monk icon wasn't the best looking, but it was visually clear what was going on.

[Wishmaster]

1. some of us were the ones who spent a lot to get the "impossible" tiles.  Making them cheap makes us feel less special.

Fair comment.... but at the end of the day this is actually what people have been asking for - The Cathars effectively reprinted and a way of getting the new cult tiles without having to buy the other mini sets again. so to my mind that's what they've done, and when I find a copy I'll be happy - despite having Cathars set already!