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Author Topic: Farm scoring- Points per city  (Read 14612 times)
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Smacky X
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« on: October 22, 2007, 11:35:58 am »

I am new to this (incredible) site and have been reading through the updated annotated rules regarding the game and all it's expansions. In doing so, I have found myself unable to totally wrap my head around the history/ progression in scoring farms that has occurred from the Carcassonne's inception until now.

More at the heart of the issue for me is the fact that my friends and I are in the habit of scoring farms at 4 points per city and I see the downloadable rules off this site go with a 3 points/city system... so I am wondering if I could get the low down on how scoring initially worked, what the differences are between German and North American scoring (if any) are and what point system Rio Grande and Hans Im Gluck currently promote. (The 'first/third edition' talk is throwing me off a bit)

It'd also be great to hear what scoring system you all go by (3 pts/farm or 4 pts/farm) and hear if you have any significant pros or cons with using either system. Or to have a little more clarity regarding the annotated rules rationale for choosing the 3 point system...

Ahh I'm asking a lot in my first post- and about something that might seem like a trivial issue. But I would appreciate hearing any thoughts or perspective from anyone on the issue.

Thanks!
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mjharper
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2007, 01:40:32 pm »

Welcome to the site! Glad you like it.

In simple terms, 1st edition farmer scoring is what comes in the box with the American Rio Grande Games (RGG) edition, whereas 3rd edition farmer scoring is what comes the original publishers of the game, Hans-im-Glück (HiG) use. and now for the detail (please, anyone should feel free to correct me…)

1st edition rules are scored from the perspective of the cities themselves: that is, you pick a city, and count the number of farmers on all the farms touching that city. Then the player with the most of those farmers scores 4 points. Then move on to the next city.

2nd edition rules followed almost immediately - after Carcassonne won Game of the Year (GotY), in fact. The original farmer rules were considered to be too difficult by the jury and they were changed, although after the change there were called for the game to be stripped of the award, since the game that won was not actually the game subsequently sold as the GotY.

The 2nd edition rules changed to scoring farms from the perspective of the farms - pick a farm, count the farmers on it, and the player with the most farms scores 3 points for every city touching the farm.

But each city could only be scored once, meaning you still had to keep track of which cities had scored 3 points and which not. 3rd edition rules came swiftly and removed that qualification, so that each city can be scored multiple times.

The great virtue of the 3rd edition rules is that you don't have to keep track of which cities have been scored, only which farms - and since you should remove the farmers after a farm has been scored, it isn't overly difficult. Also, in the 1st edition rules, the farms aren't actually scored directly, but only indirectly, making the notion of 'farmer' scoring slightly misleading and difficult to grasp for younger players (this, essentially, was the jury's objection).

But whereas 3rd edition rules have been used in Germany for the last five years or so, RGG chose to stick with the first edition rules. Why, no-one is quite sure, but the usual arguments revolve around consistency (it would confuse people to change the rules) and authenticity (1st edition rules are the one that won GotY, after all).

Of course, another advantage for American players is that the 1st edition rules are the ones that come in the box - if you don't start looking around sites like this one or BGG, you probably won't even be aware of the alternative. Being aware is a good thing, though, as most of the arguments over rules were, until recently, almost always over farmer scoring. The people at BGG are very nice on the whole, but if you want to start a flame war over there, just start a thread saying that either 1st or 3rd edition rules suck.

We're much to civilised for that over here ;-)

Actually, when Gantry and I were discussing collaborating on the site, one of the things I specified as essential was that the site would not promote 1st edition rules. I'll explain why.

First of all, most of the community in-fighting was over which edition to use, and so I thought we needed a policy. But secondly, and this is the most important advantage next to ease of use, every single expansion to the game, and every single FAQ translated on the site has 3rd edition rules in mind. As you're probably aware, there are currently 11 expansions to Carcassonne. Only one of those - the GQ mini-expansion - was authored by RGG. So, for example, when the RGG edition of Traders and Builders talks about the pig giving a bonus point and bringing the total to 5, that's an adaptation of the original German rules, in which the total is 4. Sticking to 1st edition rules has meant that RGG needed to adapt every subsequent expansion to fit - so even if 1st edition rules are more 'authentic' for the basic game, the become less 'authentic' the moment you add an expansion into the mix.

Now, none of this was really a problem, so long as players are informed about the two possibilities and agreed upon which to use. As you'll have noticed in the Annotated Rules, which are based on the latest HiG rules, I've sign-posted every point at which the RGG and HiG rules diverge - because although I couldn't work with a site which promoted 1st edition rules as the default, it's extremely important to give everyone enough information to choose. Unfortunately, that can also lead to too much detail…

But with the release of the latest expansion - Abbey and Mayor - the situation may have changed. It was inevitable that at some point HiG would release an expansion which would simply be incompatible with 1st edition farmer scoring; and now we have an expansion that potentially simplifies farmer scoring at the end of the game if you're using 3rd edition rules, but will easily double the complexity if you're still using 1st edition rules. I'll explain.

The new expansion features a barn - one for each player - which can only be placed at the intersection of four farm segments. Any farmers currently on that farm are immediately scored (3 points per adjacent city) and removed. Any farmers which, later in the game, join the farm through connecting tiles are also scored (1 point per adjacent city) and removed. At the end of the game, the barn scored 4 points per adjacent city.

When I first read the German rules, I wondered how RGG would adapt that. Potentially, the farmer removal and scoring could go ahead as usual, although it would be odd - after all, if only the farmers on one farm need to be removed, why should a city count all the other adjacent farms to produce a score? Possible, but weird. The real problem would come at the end, though - if you score farms from the perspectives of the cites, how would you judge the value or strength of the barn? Clearly, it trumps farmers - is it worth two of them? Hmm.

Well, the RGG rules (available here, in what looks like a draft) did something I didn't expect - they stick precisely to the German rules. That is, the farmers being removed score 3 points (or 1 point) per adjacent city, and the barn scores 4 points per adjacent city at the end. The barn, in both HiG and RGG rules, uses 3rd edition scoring.

But there is no indication anywhere in the rules that RGG farmer scoring in general should now follow 3rd edition rules. In other words, at the end of the game, it seems you're meant to calculate the two elements separately, using 1st edition for farmers and 3rd edition for barns. Twice as complicated, as I said.

Compare that with the effect of the barn if you're using 3rd edition rules for everything: the mechanic is consistent, there should be fewer farmers in play (and so less counting) and fewer wars for the majority. The barn should actually simplify the game…

How this will play out in the long run I don't know. The Big Box allowed both HiG and RGG to streamline the rules considerably in order to take account of unforeseen developments in later expansions - builders and pigs are no longer followers, for example. RGG chose not to use the opportunity to update farmer scoring, and the very next expansion released breaks 1st edition scoring utterly. I could imagine that they might have to officially change the rules now; on the other hand, they might decide that it's only one expansion after all, and so it isn't worth it. Only time will tell.

My advice to players has always to move to 3rd edition rules - they're simpler, and allow you to play the expansions as intended. And if you're planning to get hold of Abbey and Mayor (which you should do, since I think it's the best expansion since Traders and Builders), then now is the time to take the plunge.

Well, I'm sorry if that went on for a bit long, but I hope it helped answer your questions nevertheless!

Maybe I should edit this down and use it as an introduction to the Annotated Rules…
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Hypnotoad
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2007, 03:56:51 pm »

@mjharper: I like how you started your post "In simple terms" and then posted what's essentially an essay on the farmers and their scoring progression. Amused me quite a bit  Smiley

@Smacky X: What you're asking is very relevant and you should feel no shame about being confused. The farm scoring used to be hellishly complicated for quite a lot of people. The new system simplifies it immensely if you ask me and reduces the omnipotence of farmers a bit. More farm areas are now scored though, so it makes sense to reduce the number of points gained.

I used to play with first edition rules, and whoever placed the first really good farmer, could very well have won the game. This often happened within the first 5 tiles drawn/placed or so. It was a gamble but it often paid off. I like the new system a *lot* more and it makes for a more dynamic basic game I think.

End-game scoring is just soo much simpler with 3rd edition. You pick a totally enclosed farm segment on the board with a farmer on it, whoever has the majority gets points for all the adjacent cities. Remove farmers and move to the next farm.

In 1st edition we counted and recounted for ages. No one wanted to do it and we often discovered we'd done it wrong. Especially when using a bunch of expansions and the board got big. No thanks, I'm never ever going back to that mess.
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mjharper
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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2007, 04:08:37 pm »

Yeah, I know… I just get carried away sometimes… Confused eyes
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Hypnotoad
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2007, 04:19:28 pm »

Passion is never a bad thing, and what you've provided the community with in terms of your rules collections is simply stunning. 

Keep up the good work Doin the wave

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Smacky X
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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2007, 05:42:37 pm »

Thanks for all the time and thought poured into your response.. not only does it help me understand the specifics of the farmer scoring but sheds much useful light on the greater rationale and 'philosophy' of why you're using the rules you are. I gained a sense of that through reading through the rules downloads but this brings more clarity. (That being said- i think it would be an excellent idea to include an adapted version of your post as part of the annotated rules)

I have been using the system of scoring from the perspective of farms but for whatever reason have continued to use 4 points/city. I think it's good to streamline things- have a standard to stick by. Establishing a more common understanding for the site (and a commonly understood format for playing among players) makes total sense...

Now I have a simpler question arising out of all of this.. Why do you think they changed the 'city value' of farms to 3 points. Was there a sense that 4 points gave farmers to much power/value?
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mjharper
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2007, 11:19:50 pm »

(Thanks, Hypnotoad!)

@ Smacky X
Pleased it helped. I will try and put a version of this in the next version of the AR.

As for your question, I think that farms now score 3 points per city for a couple of reasons. Firstly, each city can be 'scored' multiple times in 3rd edition rules and so should be worth less than in 1st edition rules, where it could only be scored once. Secondly, I think there's a certain aesthetic elegance to it: roads are worth 1 point, cities are worth 2, and farms are worth 3. Without a doubt, the main reason is the first, but I think the second plays a role too.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 11:21:48 pm by mjharper » Logged

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canada steve
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« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2007, 10:04:54 am »

SmackyX use whatever scoring system you and your players feel is best for you all. I use 4 points per city myself, fail to see how something that RGG prints is 1st edition though seeing as Hans used it before them ??

Like I say as long as all your players agree and you have a good time playing then do what feels right.
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Canada Steve
Smacky X
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« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2007, 02:43:20 pm »

yeah for sure Steve- I'll make that call. Consulting people here and getting broader perspective is a part of that process. We'll just try playing both ways (had our first "3 point farm" game last night) and see if that sheds any significant light on any advantage of playing one way over the other...

I don't feel 'bound' to the rules or rules updates but lean towards wanting to just follow a more widely established system...That being said I think it will ultimately come down to choosing what we like (as you encouraged Steve)
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jay
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2007, 10:41:17 am »

Sorry for coming across somewhat ignorant on this matter...but I want to get clarity.  By scoring a city "multiple times," is the meaning that if 2+ (separate) farms border the city then the city is scored for each farm (which would be 3rd. ed. rules, right)?

thanks,
j
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Scott
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2007, 11:15:07 am »

That's correct.
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metoth
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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2008, 11:28:38 am »

In our house, we score 4 per city and use the 3rd edition concept of scoring the farms/cities.   We score 5 per city if there is a pig on the farm.  We score 5 points per city for the barn.  We add an additional point per for the pig tiles.  We're probably doing it all wrong according to purists, but I have to say that when hubby and I play the scores almost always end up being very close (nearly always within 20 points), so I think our rules work for us at any rate. 

Marie
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