Mega Carcassonne - The Need for Scoring Changes

[Bixby]

Kathy & I played Mega Carcassonne a few days back and with the large number of expansions, there really needs to be some changes to the scoring.

Carcassonne Base Game
Princess & The Dragon
Builders & Traders
The River
The River II
Cult Siege & Creativity
Spielbox Expansion
The Tunnel
The Abbey & Mayor
Carcassonne: Wheel Of Fortune
The Tower
The Count of Carcassonne
The King & Scout
There are so many tiles in play, (which is awesome), that some of the tiles really have very little impact on the game.

The Tunnel is pretty much a rarity and non-issue. SHould be bumped up in importance or capability.
The Wheel of Fortune had very little bearing on the game as the ratio of Wheel tiles was very low, we will be increasing the impact of the Wheel.
The Trade Goods are becoming a much smaller impact on the end game with this many expansions.
Just thought I would start this discussion to get thoughts and experiences from others and idea for corrections. Mega Carcassonne is quite enjoyable and we would like to bring some of the low impact items back up in importance...

[skipboris]

The only change we do is cut the King and Robber score by half.  Most games would be won by whoever had one of those at end-game.

[CKorfmann]

I have two observations.  First, I find it very difficult to judge the outcome and overall playability of any expansions in a two-player game.  The competition factor is cut way down.  For example, I played the Dragon for the first time with my wife and we never had any of our follwers eaten because if your opponent moves the dragon in your direction, you get a chance to move it away on the next turn. 

Second, I think there have been some fan-made expansions that would help a great deal with the trade goods.  Take a look at Fruit Traders and Cocoa Traders.  I have not had the experience of playing with them, but I think it would raise the stakes for those quite a bit.  Foreign Traders is likely in that list as well. 

[Bixby]

Hello All:

This is still an issue for us, so I think I will do some analysis of the tile sets and how to make minor tweaks and modifications for the scoring without having to introduce new fan-made tiles.

The biggest challenge is that with every expansion, the ratio of tiles for one expansion to the total number of tiles becomes more and more diluted. Every tile set added increases the average points per game that will be score by a player but the points for a particular expansion do not scale up and remain static. The exception to this of course is the Robber and Baron whose scoring has now become disproportionate because of the number of tiles.

Anyone else feel this way? My wife and I quiet enjoy two player Mega-Carc, and would like to realign the scoring to make some of the expansions step out of the shadows and have an impact on the game.

[Gwommy]

I've only played one game of Mega-Carcassonne with all the expansions listed above (minus Tunnels).  When I played, we had 6 players.  The winner was the one who had the biggest farm, which scored 94 points. There was a big fight for that farm.  The king and scout were only worth 50-60 points, which wasn't near enough to catch up since two different players had them.

I definitely don't think that there's anything wrong with the scoring of the Wheel of Fortune in a large game.  The number of scoring oppurtunities with the Wheel of Fortune was plenty, especially later in the game when the board was covered in meeples.  But alas, I'm sure with only two players, it's a different ball park.

And you're right, trying to collect the trade goods doesn't seem to be very helpful.

[Scott]

I have a thought. Instead of 10 points per trade good, how about a 10% bonus to your score? Could also be used for King and Robber Baron.

[CKorfmann]

While I'm sure it's enjoyable to play with your wife alone, try playing it with five or six players one time and see what you come up with.  I think you'll find that with more competition, all the tiles become more valuable.  Perhaps this will give you some ideas how to modify it for your two-player game.

I do understand though that this doesn't help solve the question you've asked and this is in regard to a strictly two-player game.  I find that regardless of the number of players, owning, or havin a part in the biggest farm is essential as well as any cities that start getting very large.  This brings King and Robber in to play.  A few suggestions I've seen are to make each token worth 10 points total at the end, or for the person currently holding either token to receive 1 point immediately upon completion of either a city or road until they no longer hold it (kinda like the fairy).

The dragon is made useless with only 2 players, so you could eliminate it perhaps.  I might suggest playing with two Tunnel sets.  That might make them a little more viable.

Maybe something you could try is to mix all the tiles and randomly eliminate a third of them without looking at them.  This would have a serious impact on the game, but maybe not the one you're looking for.  I hope at least some of this is helpful.

[Bixby]

Here is some information I gathered based on the expansions we have:

Carcassonne Tile Analysis

Tiles Description
72   Base Game      
12   Games Quarterly
05   King & Scout
12   Cult, Siege, & Creativity
24   The River I & II
12   Bridges, Castles, & Bazaars
18   Inns & Cathedrals
24   Traders & Builders
12   Abbey & Mayor
18   The Tower
72   Wheel of Fortune
30    The Princess & the Dragon
09   The Tunnel
320 Tiles

King & Scout
Base game + King & Scout consists of 77 tiles. Scoring for the King & Thief is based on 77 tiles only so the impact is much greater when the game is extended to 320 tiles. 315.6% increase in tiles to make roads and cities.

Problem: King & Scout scoring is too powerful in Mega-Carcassonne.

Solution: Table that outlines the value of having the King & Thief that is based on tiles in play, not on roads and cities.

Tiles in Play	King (Cities)	Thief (Roads)
001 – 100	20 Points	20 Points
101 – 150	25 Points	25 Points
151 – 200	30 Points	30 Points
201 – 250	40 Points	40 Points
251 – 300	50 Points	50 Points
301 – 350	60 Points	60 Points

Trade Goods
Base game + Traders & Builders consist of 96 tiles. There are 20 trade good tiles which would be 20.8% of the tiles in play. When the game is extended to 320 tiles, the percentage is dropped to 9.4%.

Problems: (1) Trade good tiles become much rarer in Mega-Carcassonne. (2) The static scoring amounts for trade goods is too low to be of importance. The average scoring for the game will now be much higher and the relatively small scores for trade goods no longer offer much of an incentive.

Solution: Scaled value for trade goods, awarded at the end of the game:

#	Barrel	Wheat	Cloth
One	4	5	6
Two	9	11	13
Three	15	18	21
Four	22	26	30
Five	30	35	40
Six	39	45
Seven	49
Eight	60
Nine	72

Wheel Of Fortune
Wheel of Fortune has 72 Tiles of which 19 trigger the wheel. That equates to the meeples on the wheel getting action 26.4% of the time. In a game with 320 tiles, the wheel only activates 5.9% of the time.

Problem: Mega-Carc greatly reduces the activation of the wheel which means meeples on the wheel have minimal opportunity for payback. Better to use them to score features on the board.

[Gwommy]

Awesome analysis, Bixby.

For the King & Scout, the scaled values are very close to what I've found to be the actual outcome.  As mentioned above, both were worth between 50-60 points and we had 313 tiles in play.  So to speed up end scoring, one could use the table that Bixby made to approximate the score.  For those that are anal, you can still count each finished city or road. =b

For traded goods, if each is only worth 10pts when there's about 100 tiles, couldn't one just say at the end of the game, the player with the most of each traded goods gets 1pt for every 10 tiles in the game?  So if you're playing with 313 tiles, each player with the most of each goods would get 31pts (or 32 if you wanted to round up).  That seems fair to me and much easier to manage.

I suppose to balance the Wheel of Fortune, one could use a similar scoring method as above. Since WoF is approximately 75 tiles and each section of the wheel is 3pts, you could say they're worth 1pt for every 25 tiles used.  So in a 300 tile game, each 3 point section of the wheel would be worth 12pts.

[CKorfmann]

I think the larger number of followers in your supply in a game of mega carc goes at least a little way to helping to balance the WoF.  When you consider that 4 of the 6 sections have actions regarding followers, it seems reasonable that more points would be the result.  It might be worthwhile to forward some of these questions to HiG.  Then again, with the pig and the builder (and the barn?) not being considered followers, how would they be effected?  More questions...

[CKorfmann]

Had an idea for this with WoF, though it might not be an ideal solution.  What if you bought a second set of WoF and just used the wheel tiles.  Granted, this would be a lot more likely an option if you were into making customs, but it would give the wheel more of a presence.

[mjharper]

Good thread. I might use some of it in the CAR, if that's okay...

[Whaleyland]

At work today, I was thinking of scales for Trade Goods. And I came up with two alternate methods of scoring that may make people happy and could be used regardless of how many expansions/tiles are being used.

New Trade Goods Value:
Using triangular numbers

Barrels = 3 points each
Grain = 6 points each
Cloth = 10 points each

Majority-only Option
Player with the most of each trade good receives points equal to the trade goods value x the number of trades goods of that type in their supply. In addition, each player with a majority of trade goods receives 10 bonus points at game end (as per current rules).

Example: Jeff has 6 barrels establishing the majority so he receives at game end (3 points x 6 barrels) + 10 bonus points = 28 points.

Distribution Option
The points for any trade goods are rewarded as soon as a player completes a city. In addition, each player with a majority of trade goods receives 10 bonus points at game end (as per current rules).

Example: Matt completes a city with 1 barrel and 2 cloths. He receives 23 points for those trade goods. At game end, he has the majority of grain trade goods so receives 10 bonus points.


The first option keeps with the current system where people earn their points at game end only but adds more of a desire to gain MORE trade tokens, especially of cloth. The second option allows all players to benefit from trade tokens as bonuses for completing cities. Both still retain the current end-game scoring with no modification. Just my thoughts. What do you guys think?

[Bixby]

Good thread. I might use some of it in the CAR, if that's okay...

Certainly. I am flattered.

[Slayden]

I noticed a few posts back by bixby that when playing mega carc that the frequency of wheel of fortune tile becomes diluted.  I came up with a way of increasing the frequency by making my own replica stickers of the wheel of fortune symbol.   I scanned the symbols then simply printed them out on adhesive paper.