some clarification needed

[Marty]

Hi,
I'm new to this forum and in fact to this game too. A friend of mine bought it few weeks ago, and we all are big fans of it since then. We got the basic game together with first 6 (big) expansions.

So, to come to what I wanted to ask, here is a list  (Note: as tile reference I'm going to use tile codes from this document http://www.hans-im-glueck.de/fileadmin/data_archive/Regeln/CarcKartenlisteGesamt0708.pdf):

1. Can I move the wagon from one city to another, or at least to any of the 2 roads, with the EI Tile?

2. Say there's an unoccupied city/road. When someone completes it with a vulcano tile (e.g. city with a BY or road with a B1), he/she can't score it as he/she is not allowed to put a follower there (even if it was removed after scoring). Is the only way to score it only through paratrooping?

3. Is the city connected with the road in the AL Tile so that the wagon can move from one to another?

4. Can I deploy a farmer on any of the farms on the AC Tile? Not that it would be worth it, just if it's possible?

5. Can the dragon remove a barn (eat is not the right word, so let's say he burns it with his fire breath)? Because the paper rules we've got say he can, but I've read somewhere here that he can't.

That's all that comes to my mind at this point. Maybe I'll add some others later.
Thx

[CKorfmann]

1. Can I move the wagon from one city to another, or at least to any of the 2 roads, with the EI Tile?

That's a very good question indeed.  I think the official ruling on this is that the roads are impassible due to the trees, but I'd have to refer you to the CAR and/or Matthew Harper for this one.  If you haven't seen the CAR yet, you should!    You can get it at THIS thread.

2. Say there's an unoccupied city/road. When someone completes it with a vulcano tile (e.g. city with a BY or road with a B1), he/she can't score it as he/she is not allowed to put a follower there (even if it was removed after scoring). Is the only way to score it only through paratrooping?

I would say you have this correct.  Being that it is complete, it would be left unclaimable by magic portals later, so the only way I could see being able to claim it would be with followers from the city of Carcassonne.

3. Is the city connected with the road in the AL Tile so that the wagon can move from one to another?

While it does work that way, I wouldn't say that's why it was drawn that way.  I think the thought behind the design of this tile is to seperate the farms on the top side of the tile, but continuing the one farm on the bottom side, all while the road remains continuous.

4. Can I deploy a farmer on any of the farms on the AC Tile? Not that it would be worth it, just if it's possible?

Yes, technically, you could deploy a farmer to any of those farms.  It is worth noting though that on that particular tile, there are only two farms as each continue (left to right) under the bridge.

5. Can the dragon remove a barn (eat is not the right word, so let's say he burns it with his fire breath)? Because the paper rules we've got say he can, but I've read somewhere here that he can't.

No, from what I recall from the most recent update to the CAR, the barn cannot be removed by the Dragon because it does not reside on any one tile.  It is on an intersection.

Welcome to the site and to the game!  I think you'll discover that both are good fun!

[Scott]

1. I wouldn't say the roads are impassable. The clump of trees is separating the north part of the road from the south part, making them two separate, scorable things. The stubby roads are not occupiable according to HiG, so I would be inclined to say that you would move directly from one city to the other.

2. Yes, the only way to score is to paratroop from the City of Carcassonne after the dragon has gone on his rampage.

3. What CKorfmann said. The short answer is that the road is continuous and the wagon can go through the tunnel without having to stop.

4. Yes, you can deploy a farmer to either of the two farms. I've seen some cases where it actually was worth it, but you need to be really aggressive on turning the cities into four separate.

5. I'm going to refrain from answering this one because I'm not sure.

Definitely download the latest CAR if you haven't already. Most questions that people ask, the answer is in there and we're just reciting it back. Anything not in there, we're giving our "professional" opinion. Also, the tile reference system in the CAR makes it easier to know what is being talked about without having to look it up.

[Joff]

1. I wouldn't say the roads are impassable. The clump of trees is separating the north part of the road from the south part, making them two separate, scorable things. The stubby roads are not occupiable according to HiG, so I would be inclined to say that you would move directly from one city to the other.

Scott's interpretation would also be my interpretation of question 1.

I thought that question 5 had been answered officially somewhere, but I can't locate it. It is probably my mistake. It is a good question. Tiberius.

[CKorfmann]

According to the chart on page 73 of the CAR, the Barn is not "dragon food." 

[Marty]

Hi all,
first, thank you for your answers and opinions. It cleared some things for me.

@Scott: I don't know if we understand eachother on the 3. I know that there's one road segment, just wanted to know, if I could move the wagon from the city to the road and vice versa.

As for the first question something like this comes to my mind:
As stated (in the CAR as well) you are not allowed to place a follower on the two small roads. There could be two reasons:
1. the roads are completed
2. it's just a visual component to divide farms
As a conclusion from any of these I would say that the wagon is not allowed to move between the cities (the CAR states that there is no possibility to move directly from one city to another with current tiles). The only possibilty for the wagon movement would be between north and south roads.
Then there's another thing which comes: if the small roads are considered completed, what about the robber baron at the end of a game?

I've got another question about the wagon movement. CAR states that the wagon can move between roads only through crossings. Does it mean that, when roads end at tower foundations (e.g. the frrr tile), it's not allowed to move the wagon from one to another?

[Joff]

@Scott: I don't know if we understand eachother on the 3. I know that there's one road segment, just wanted to know, if I could move the wagon from the city to the road and vice versa.

As for the first question something like this comes to my mind:
As stated (in the CAR as well) you are not allowed to place a follower on the two small roads. There could be two reasons:
1. the roads are completed
2. it's just a visual component to divide farms
As a conclusion from any of these I would say that the wagon is not allowed to move between the cities (the CAR states that there is no possibility to move directly from one city to another with current tiles). The only possibilty for the wagon movement would be between north and south roads.
Then there's another thing which comes: if the small roads are considered completed, what about the robber baron at the end of a game?

I would be with Scott on this and allow Wagon movement directly from one city to the other. The Wagon must use roads to move to new features. So, here are my Wagon movement examples:



The Wagon currently occupies the city to the east of the junction.



The city is completed. The Wagon can now move.



The Wagon can move directly across the junction and occupy the incomplete city to the west of the junction.



Alternatively, the Wagon may occupy the northern road...



... or the southern road.



Bear in mind that there are two tiles in different Carcassonne sets. The first (left) is from the pre Big Box and functions exactly the same as the newly redrawn version for the Big Box (right).

I've got another question about the wagon movement. CAR states that the wagon can move between roads only through crossings. Does it mean that, when roads end at tower foundations (e.g. the frrr tile), it's not allowed to move the wagon from one to another?

A tower foundation blocks a road, therefore, the Wagon cannot pass.

Edit: Swapped 'left' and 'right'

[CKorfmann]

Bear in mind that there are two tiles in different Carcassonne sets. The first (right) is from the pre Big Box and functions exactly the same as the newly redrawn version for the Big Box (left).

I struggle with that a little bit.  I have a diffucult time justifying ending the road on the left hand tile because it's clearly drawn to go straight through.  I don't know why they changed it when they re-released it, but it just makes it too convaluted.

[Marty]

Bear in mind that there are two tiles in different Carcassonne sets. The first (right) is from the pre Big Box and functions exactly the same as the newly redrawn version for the Big Box (left).

Yeah, I know that. (btw. isn't the left hand tile pre Big Box?)

I would be with Scott on this and allow Wagon movement directly from one city to the other.

OK, but isn't this a contradiction to what you are saying: CAR p. 52, footnote 164?

Moving the wagon (on this tile) from one city to another looks to me more like skipping a "completed" feature (road), than moving it from a completed feature "to a directly adjacent city, road or cloister" (CAR p. 52).

[Joff]

I struggle with that a little bit.  I have a diffucult time justifying ending the road on the left hand tile because it's clearly drawn to go straight through.  I don't know why they changed it when they re-released it, but it just makes it too convaluted.

You should not have any trouble justifying ending the road... it is written in the rules! That is all the justification one needs

Only the artwork was changed for the Big Box release; none of the rules were changed for this tile. Of course, the reason they redrew the tile for the Big Box release was to clarify the rules. The original artwork did seem to fly-in-the-face of the rules and was too confusing!

[Joff]

Actually Marty, I think you may have a valid point. Upon closer inspection of the rules we discover:

1) The road/s between the two cities would indeed be complete. They both start and end with junction bushes and a city wall.

"* A completed road
A road is completed when the road segments on both sides end in a crossing, a city segment or a cloister, or when the road forms a closed circle. There is no limit to the number of road segments which can lie between these endings." CAR p9

2) A wagon cannot travel across completed features.

"If a feature occupied by a wagon is scored, the wagon counts as a normal follower. After scoring, the player may return the wagon to his or her supply, or may move the wagon to a directly adjacent road, city or cloister. The feature into which the wagon is moved must be incomplete and unoccupied. If none of the neighbouring features are incomplete and unoccupied, the player must return the wagon to the supply." CAR p52

3) A wagon must use roads to be able to move to adjacent features.

"164 Question: What is the definition of [connected/adjacent/neighbouring] for the Wagon? If two city walls are touching (maybe even only at a point), can I drive my Wagon from one to another? Answer: ‘Connected’ means roads which lead to crossings and roads which head directly ‘into’ a city or a cloister. Two cities never connect to each other (in the current land tiles). So the wagon has to use the roads to move—it’s a wagon, after all." CAR p52

So, the current rules lean towards not being able to move across the road to occupy the city. This is definitely a question to be clarified by HiG.

[Marty]

And what's your opinion to this:

Then there's another thing which comes: if the small roads are considered completed, what about the robber baron at the end of a game?

[Vulch]

Being pedantic about this, to be "completed", a road would need to have previously been "uncompleted".

I would define "completed" as being "completed by a player"; otherwise its just a landscape feature.

I am sure I read somewhere that a short road from a city entrance to a junction, within the same tile, is more of a driveway and thus part of the city?

So in the tile in question you have two cities (with driveways) and two roads going from the junction.

[Scott]

Based on recent postings, I'm changing my opinion. I agree that the short roads are completed, so the wagon would not be able to travel between the two cities.

Regarding the tunnel road, I don't see the road and the city as being connected, so I don't feel inclined to allow the wagon to travel between the two.

[Marty]

Hi again,
first, thanks for your opinions.

@Vulch: I would rather prefer the idea, that the small roads are just a landscape feature. Being part of the city might create some confusion regarding connections of roads & cities in this tile.

And here's a new question: If there's an abbey placed, does it (or does not) connect to the surrounding roads/cities? Again regarding the wagon movement.

And another one (I kinda got a lot of questions about wagons... ) : if I paratroop a wagon from CC to a city/road/cloister/shrine may I move it after scoring like it was standing there from the beginning?