Carcassonne Central

A new expansion to comment on:

THE POPE OF AVIGNON

A Carcassonne variant originated by Patrik Wikström

In the history of the Roman Catholic Church, the Avignon Papacy was the period from 1309 to 1377 during which seven popes, all French, resided in Avignon, France. The city of Avignon flourished because of this in both cultural aspects and growth of population. The people around Carcassonne have mixed opinions about this. Some are even willing to take the city under siege and force the Pope over to their city.

EXTRA PIECES
•   1  Pope (an extra count painted in white can be used)
•   1 Avignon City tile (not made yet)

ADDITIONAL RULES

Preparation
The Avignon City tile is mixed in with the other land tiles.

Placing the Avigon City tile and deploying the Pope
The Avignon City tile is placed in the same way as a normal tile.
When the Avignon City tile is drawn and laid, the player who laid the tile deploys the Pope onto the city segment of the Avignon City tile.
The player can place the tile and connect it to another city that already holds a follower.

Scoring
1 point is added to every tile of the completed city if it holds the Pope.

Taking the Pope over to another city
Adding a Cathar tile or a siege tile to the city that holds the Pope will allow an opportunity to redeploy the Pope to any incomplete city on the playing area.
Then later in the game another city may get the bonus points for the Pope.

Acknowledgements
Thanks to Jonathan Warren for comments and suggestions

This looks good.  The phrasing of the text would probably needs to be "tightened up" so that it cannot be misunderstood, but that's something to work on.

The introduction needs commas after 1377, in the first sentence and flourised because of this, in the second sentence.  "growth of population" would read better as "population growth".  Do the people around Carcassonne still have mixed opinions about this?  or is it had?  And for the last sentence, I think you mean "Some are even willing to lay siege to the city to force the Pope to another city."

Edit: Added the white count for your rules document.  The tile you requested is in the queue, which hasn't progressed today because I've been busy doing site staff things...

Edit 2: Added this and The House of Valois to the development list.

Here is the latest draft rules: The Pope of Avignon (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/Pope_0_2.pdf)

The rules are unclear, can you still play a meeple (or an equivilant MTW action) after playing the pope?

When is the pope played, before or after the scoring phase of the turn?  Is it possible to play the tile, deploy the pope, score the city and then move the pope?

Personification is great technic when writing novels, but it's hopeless for things like rules... "1 point is added to every tile of the completed city if it holds the Pope." would probably read better as "A completed city that contains the Pope on one of its tiles gives an additional one point to every tile in the city."

The same rephrasing is probably required for the Cathar/siege tile statement as a city cannot literally "hold" the pope.

"Then later in the game another city may get the bonus points for the Pope."  How much later?  When exactly?  Why would the pope get points... what does the pope do with the points?  Is there a benefit to a particular player?  Why doesn't players get points?  I don't really understand this statement...

Additional questions:
Can the pope be removed by the dragon or the tower?  Or the Stocks or Gallows?
Can the pope be moved to the City of Carcassonne?
Does the pope count for majority when playing with Jousting Tournament?
What happens when the fairy is next to the pope?
Is the pope's bonus to a city's score additive to the cathedral's bonus?
What happens when a player does not have any Cathar or Siege tiles?  Does this expansion require that those tiles be played with?
Will Joff make a white Count?

Absolutely not! (at the moment anyway ;) )

For the Pope, you can obtain a shepherd from here: http://bedi-spielematerial.eu/product_info.php?info=p112_Shepherd.html&XTCsid=1b038c159ad8397110f0884a0ee36ad7 (http://bedi-spielematerial.eu/product_info.php?info=p112_Shepherd.html&XTCsid=1b038c159ad8397110f0884a0ee36ad7)

Almost the same as the Count.

You should add that to your list of places to obtain meeples.  Thanks for the link though {wv

It is listed there :)

Ooooh, thanks Joff.  Anyways, I sent this to Joff, but I guess there's no reason why it can't be made available here for people to playtest this expansion.  Here are the Avignon tiles (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/images/download/expansions/avignontiles.pdf).

Here are the latest rules from wicke: The Pope (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/Pope3.pdf)

Have the previous issues I raised been answered?

I will check your comments when I get the time, I have had visitors for a week now, so I haven't had ANY time for that.
But, I don't think I will refer to every fan-made expansion there is, like Stocks, Gallows or Jousting Tournament as you mentioned, since I have never played with those or even read the rules for them.

Well, wicke, since Joff is the author of those, and since he is helping you write the rules, you might want to ask him for help.

Latest rules with Novelty's comments: The Pope 0.4 (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/Pope_0_4.pdf)

That's starting to look better.  Good work, Joff and wicke.

More questions.

1. "1 Avignon City tile (there is also an alternate Avignon City tile with a river segment that can be used instead of using this tile.  Only one of the Avignon city tiles is to be used in a game.)" <-- the bold additions will make it clearer.  Actually, I would move the whole lot to preparation and just leave the "1 Avignon City tile" above.
2. Can I choose not to play the pope and play a follower (or any other MTW action) instead, when I draw the Avignon tile?
3. If I play the pope, can I do any other MTW actions (such as move the fairy, play a tower piece etc. which are not followers)?
4. "The player can place the tile and connect it to another city that already holds has a follower in that city."  <-- bold = additions, strikethroughs = deletions
Previous questions unanswered with official expansions:
5. Can the pope be moved to the City of Carcassonne? (Count of Carcassonne)
6. What happens when the fairy is next to the pope? (Princess and Dragons)
7. Is the pope's bonus to a city's score additive to the cathedral's bonus? (Inns and Cathedrals)
8. What happens when a player does not have any Cathar or Siege tiles?  Does this expansion require that those tiles be played with? (Graf, Koenig & Kulsultten, Shrines & Heretics, Cathars, Cult, Siege & Creativity)
Previous unanswered questions with fan-made expansions (since there is a footnote for Invasion of Catharism):
9. Does the pope count for majority when playing with Jousting Tournament? (Jousting Tournament, part of Medieval Expansion)
10. Can the pope be removed the Stocks or Gallows? (Stocks, Gallows, both part of Medieval Expansion)

Joff:
It could be my browser, but is my name in a different font (or font size) in Acknowledgements?
Also, the alignment of the CC logo isn't at the bottom of the page as I'm used to seeing it.  Is that intentional?

This is the latest version from wicke.

This time i've had some time to look through it (I was up early ;) ) and give it a rewrite. I have changed some of the wording and one or two footnotes slightly. I'm not sure if all Novelty's comments have been included, but I have added some text of my own (highlighted in red) which are my suggestions. You are free to use these as you wish wicke.

Pope 0.5 (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/Pope_0_5.pdf)

Here are my reasons for the red highlights:

Required Expansions:
It seems to me that this expansion does not require any extra expansions, but would benefit greatly from some.

Placing the Avignon City tile and deploying the Pope:
The player who places the Pope could be at a disadvantage from other players. The bonus point would alleviate that problem slightly.
'The Pope remaining in play' sentence was an excuse to attach the footnotes ;) however, the question remains of what happens when the Pope has scored his city and is removed from the playing area. Here is an attempt to address the problem.

That looks a lot better, all my questions are answered.  However, the text justification seems to be lost again for the new lines in Preparation and Required expansions.  There's also a space/line missing between footnotes 2 & 3.

I've resized the tiles a bit based on an image I got from wicke regarding the "black lines".  wicke, can you print this (http://www.dukenostalgia.com/junk/avignontilesr.pdf) out and let me know if it is better please?  Thanks.

Fixed! Links are the same.

Excellent, the tiles are perfect now.
I will try and look at the latest comments to Valois and Pope later today, but most likely it will be next year.

Cheers

Another satisfied customer.  I will go and update all my tiles just for wicke :(

Edit: Next year...

OK, Joff (and Novelty), I'll go along with all your suggestions.
Although I have some comments:
1. in extra pieces (or in preparation), let's show the Avignon City tile with river segment as well
2. footnote 3 (answer), should say 'compete' not 'complete'
3. footnote 10, let's show the CFFF tile from Catapult, as well

Thanks for spending time on this, maybe this soon will become a finalized variant.
Happy New Year

Well spotted :)

Another update:
Pope 0.6 (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/Pope_0_6.pdf)

I did notice a slight problem which I have not corrected. I suggested a 1 point bonus to the player who lays the Avignon city tile. This works if the player draws the tile and lays it, but this would not be the case if the river tile was being used, as that would (I assume) be the starting tile. I suppose just a reference that if the rive Avignon city tile was being used no player gets the 1 point bonus, as this would be the starting tile and was not laid by any player.

Joff, sorry but sometimes it's difficult to realize that some things can be misinterpreted.
When I wanted a Avignon City tile with river segment it was only to be played together with the Fishermen expansion.
As it says in the first line of Preparation: "The Avignon City tile is mixed in with the other land tiles."
Not, as you wrote in footnote 1, but that's my fault, I hadn't been clear enough on that.
So, I guess that makes Pope 0.7, with just a rewrite of footnote 1 mentioning the fan-made Fishermen expansion. So the 1-point bonus still works.

Cheers
.../Wicke

Ok, no problem. I will amend and update.


Edit: It would work also if you used the Avignon River tile to replace the normal River spring tile anyway but without the scoring bonus ;)

OK, you can add your edit as well then to the footnote, but in that case I would like you to mention that as just being a "house-rule".

This is the footnote that I have added:

"The Avignon City tile with the river segment is used when playing the fan-made Fishermen expansion. If using the tile with the fan-made Fishermen expansion, the Avignon City tile with a river segment is mixed in with the other tiles. However, the Avignon City tile with the river segment could also be used to replace the normal spring tile from River/River II. If you choose to do this, the tile becomes the starting tile and the Pope is deployed to this tile before any other tiles are laid. No player receives a bonus point for placing the Pope. It should be noted that the official way of playing the Avignon City tile with the river segment is with the fan-made Fishermen expansion and not with River/River II, and so using the tile with River/River II is considered a house-rule."

Sounds allright to me, but some might think there are too much repetition but it might be the only way to avoid misinterpretations.
Will you upload this version (0.7) later then, thanks
.../Wicke

I have obtained wicke's blessing to finish off his expansions.

Therefore, here is another update:
Pope 0.7 (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/Pope_0_7.pdf)

Comments are welcome.

I know that examples are required. Let me know where examples might be necessary.

Well, I was going to say that the rules looked better now, but...

Comment: Text justification lost in the footnotes...

Rephrasing:
There are no required expansions for playing The Pope of Avignon,. hHowever, it is suggested that this expansion be played together with a copy of either The Cathars, The Siege or The Catapult, or a combination of these expansions, as this are optional and will contribute greatly to this expansion the gameplay. You may also play this expansion with both The Cathars and The Siege expansions.

Rephrasing:
The player can place the Avignon City tile and connect it to another city that is already is occupied by a follower.4

Comment: Shouldn't the paragraph that starts with "The Pope remains in play..." be at the end of the scoring section?

Rephrasing:
A completed city that contains the Pope on one of its city segments gives scores an additional point to for every tile making up in the completed city.  This is in addition to the points scored by the , even if the city contains a cathedral.8,9 Once After scoreding, the Pope is redeployed by the player who completed the city (by laying the last tile) to any incomplete city that the player chooses.

Comment: In the above text, does the city segment that the pope is redeployed to have to be empty?  A footnote might be required eitherway for clarification.

Comment: I don't think a scoring example is required here since this is rather straightforward.

Observation: Also, it would be nice to say in the footnotes that both the avignon tiles can be used as a houserule (since the door was already opened about houserules in the first footnote) and then go on to spell out how what changes would be required for playing with both Avignon tiles.  However, this isn't necessary, but it would enhance the rules a bit more.

Comment: The current way the "Forcing the pope to another city" section is written, it is perfectly legal to force the pope from one city tile to another city tile within the same city.  The title of the section and the text of the section does not match.

Comment: The rules does not state when the Pope is forced to another city:
a) is this a MTW action?
b) If the city is completed by the Cathar/Siege tile, is it scored first or is the Pope moved first?

Rephrasing (in its entirety) Footnote 11:
A completed city with the Pope will still score an extra point for every tile in the completed city.  However, the Pope cannot be moved to another city and is returned to the side of the playing area after the city is scored.  The only way that the Pope can be moved if these expansions are not being played with is with a tile from the Catapult expansion.  This tile (shown to the right) when connected to a city that contains the Pope, will force the Pope to move to another city.

Question for Joff: How does the Pope interact with the Jousting Tournament scoring?

Sorry Joff, it still needs a bit more work.

Edit: Did you define MTW anywhere in there Joff?

That's fine... I agree that it still needs plenty of work!


I thought I had done so at the same time as Valois and Kids, but, now I look at it, MTW is not really clearly defined as it is in the others. I usually add a seperate footnote describing MTW. I will add it to the next update..

Pope 0.7 (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/Pope_0_7.pdf)

Comments are welcome once again.

There was a slight problem with my saving of this file. I gave it exactly the same version name and overwrote the last version. So this is indeed still version 0.7, but with some changes  :-[

One unanswered question:

Comment: The term "majority" needs a footnote of some sort.  The official carc rules all have "have the most followers" instead of majority.

Otherwise this is almost ready to go!

Question answered :)

Not absolutely sure that the term 'majority' needs a defining footnote. However, it is only mentioned once in these rules (and that is in the footnotes themselves), but i've added a definition in parentheses.

Here is the final release: The Pope of Avignon (ver 1) (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/Pope_1.pdf)

That's one of the three done :)

Yay!  Now available at a Carc Central Public Downloads page near you too :)

The link on the "Completed Fan-Made Expansions.." of "Pope of Avignon" is broken. Can someone mend it? It works from the download section but not from the thread I mentioned...

Done~!

Thanks!

Oh, and in future, koolkat, please post on that thread :)  This thread is for talking about the expansion, that thread is for talking about things like links not working.  It would make my life easier :)  Thanks.

Looks fine Joff, thanks, but why is there a page 4 with just the CC link.
Put that on page 3.

Thanks wicke. Link sorted.

Public Downloads updated as well.  Thanks wicke!  Welcome back!