Carcassonne Central

When a feature is completed with a wagon on that feature, and is scored, Can we move the wagon to another adjacent legal feature, AND deploy another meeple to the tile free feature??? Or due to the wagon movement we can't deploy anither meeple...

thx Deatheux!

Moving the wagon occurs after scoring, but before the end of your turn. You're not allowed to deploy a new meeple until your next turn, or in some cases the second half of a double turn, if the wagon was teamed up with the builder.

you lost me a bit here... let's say i draw a C,R,R,F tile a *R* is closed witch a wagon stands there, can i deploy a follower on the *C*, then score the *R* where my wagon is on and MOVE it to the other *R* lefting "free" on the drawn tile??

let's say there is no builder on the completed feature(in thes case *R*).

AND THEN, let's say that there IS a builder in the closed *R* in the first half of the turn.

...now in the second hald of the (builder) turn...

do the "builder" can messed up as big the ruling on this???

I think we're thinking about different situations here. I thought you were trying to deploy a meeple after moving your wagon.


Yes, that works.


I don't think the builder makes any difference in the situation you described.

COOL!!! maybe add this particular event in the F.A.Q.???

cuz saturday, my friennds & I din't see any ruling about this, and i found that a it weird!

to be honest, i thought that the wagon movement was considered the deployement to a featured part...

i was wrong

The mechanics of the wagon are already described in the rules that come with the A&M expansion.

@deatheaux - I have noticed that a lot of the issues that you raise could be understood more easily if there was a clear description of the complete sequence of a game turn as it occurs when playing multiple expansions. HiG and RGG do not provide such an overall complete description. A couple of people have tried to do it but their material is either out of date or incomplete. I have drafted a document that (I think) is complete and that is consistent with the CAR. It takes a bit of effort to read it, but I wanted to be accurate rather than easy to read. If it will help with some of your questions it is at:

http://members.shaw.ca/carcassonne/ (http://members.shaw.ca/carcassonne/)

There are a couple of other documents there that may also be interesting. If you see any errors please let me know.

@dwhitworth: They are good. I particularly like the 'Problem Tiles' document. Excellent work :)

@david: great document(s), I like the mathematical precision in the document(s), great work!!

I will save my comments until I have read it all. which I will!

Michiel

i know, i used to read instruction before play a game... BUT, this particular precision is NOT(i think) in the rules, there is a fundamental turn structure that flip between my fingers. So pardon if i ask a stupid question, i'll try to keep quiet in stupid questions and surf all the net to find infos on some "hobby" thing(btw i have ONLY this to do in my "born bred beaten" life...)!!

@dwithworth: I read all your docs, great!  a few remarks (-;
 
Sequence of turn, doc:
 
page 3:  Point 1, 2nd IF "They may ransom one prisoner from one opponent":
- small remark: "you should have at least 3 points"
- footnote 8: there are actually 2 points at which you would like to ransom a prisoner: 1) after drawing & placing a tile 2) before possibly move a follower to carcassonne. Together with the builder this gives a maximum of 4 possible opportunities to ransom a follower (of which no more than one may be executed)
p3 Point 2 first IF: I would add: "immediate U-turns are forbidden"
 
p3 Point 2 second ELSE "according to the rule for placements of Shrines and CLoisters" I would add a footnote with this rule: "A shrine or cloister may not be placed in such a way that a shrine adjoins more than one cloister/shrine/abbey."
( This covers the original rule, and also the problem in footnote 189 )
 
p4 Point 2 "Tiles that complete Cities and road....". I would move these 3 Points to Point 6 of 4. Scoring. So that would become: "Calculate scores for the feature and move the scoring markers, take trade goods, and award king, and/or Robber Baron, if applicable", But that is just a matter of taste it is not wrong!
 
p4 Point 3 next ELSE: "The piece must be deployed to uncompleted feature": This is wrong it may be deployed to any feature (complete or uncomplete) on the tile just played.
 
p5: "A Pig, Builder can be placed on the tile, or a Barn on tiles adjoining that meet Barn deployment requirements. But the Pig and Builder are eaten by the Dragon immediately and removed": I do not think this is true, the dragon only eats things where it goes to. In the description of the dragon you state it correctly: "Pigs and builders placed on a volcano tile when the tile is first placed are not eaten by the dragon unless he moves back to that tile in a later turn"
 
p5:"The turn may be interrupted here for Dragon movement" I think the dragon deserves its own numbering (number 4 that is) But that is again just a matter of taste!
 
p6. Point 4 scoring (point2) : I think the deployment of followers to carcassone must be done BEFORE all the feature scoring. If there is only 1 feature the usual pocedure may be followed: "The player to the left of the one who placed the last tile begins, followed in turn by the other players. The player who placed the last tile may redeploy their followers last. Each player may choose to redeploy all, any or none of his or her followers from the appropriate city quarter to the feature being scored.". If more than one feature is being scored you have a problem: see my question: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=194.0 according to Mat, the same procedure as at the end of the game could be followed, so: "Beginning with the player on the left of the 'trigger' player, each player redeploys one of his or her followers from the city of Carcassonne to a completed feature [meeples in castle can only be deployed to cities, and so on] on the board. This process continues until no player wants to redeploy any more players from Carcassonne to the completed features The count still blocks the city quarter in which he is resident." However this is probably still worth asking HiG!

p6. Point 4 scoring (wagon deployment): I think this has to be done AFTER all the features are scored, so "Multiple Wagons are moved (or removed) in turn starting with the player placing the completing tile" (so not per feature). So it should be done possibly after: "Return followers to supply"

p6 footnote 25: after carcassone deployment & wagon movements have been taken out of the feature scoring "loop", the order is not important anymore!

Game figures, doc

p4: The description of Wagon movement "When a feature containing....." is a bit vague, somewhere in the forum was a good description ( I cannot find it now (-; )
I think basically a wagon can move from a road to a city or a cloister, or vice versa, but only if the road leads DIRECTLY in the city/cloister, and it should be uncompleted & unoccupied!

p10 fairy: "If the fairy is standing next to a follower....",  I would add: "also at the end of the game, when a feature is scored"

p12 summary: footnote 2, is no longer true (see footnote 130 in the CAR), it it possible now to capture your own follower with a tower

*******

(sorry tried to keep short  ;D )

@mdjvz Wow! Thanks for the detailed work. I have just scanned over your points and will need a little time to absorb them. I also suspect I might disagree with a couple of them  :) - but, if so, it will lead to clearer understanding for all when we sort them out.

I will spend some time on these over the next couple of days and let you know what I have incorporated (most of it) and where and if I think there are ambiguities and places where we need more clarification.

Thanks again for spending the time to review this. With that kind of help, one day I may get it all right!!

@dwithworth: ok ;),

I found the link about the wagon  :D:

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=191.15

I meant the quote from "Novelty"


Oh yeah in the same link I mentioned, I discussed the 3rd tile in "Your Abbeys and mayor" section (with the tunnel in the city), I think most people agreed the road did not lead into the city so here also: "The roads are not connected to the cities for the
purpose of a wagon moving from one feature to the other."

About the Cloister in the city.. It looks like there is no agreement about this, so probably ask HiG in the next round?!

*** so far for today  ;D  ***

@ mdjvz Thanks again for these points. Here are my thoughts:


Footnote added to cover this.


Footnote added including a version of this text with acknowledgment to you.


Good points. But right now I am resisting making this document too much of a rules reference. I am trying (most of the time) to keep it to the issues of sequence of turn. Aldaron tried to make his document a rules summary as well, but he was much more skilled at clear legal language than I am. So where I can, I am resorting to “ . . do this; now; according to the rules . . .”. I may weaken on this one day . . .


I have placed this here for two reasons. One, Aldaron did it and I liked his work. Two, it helps clarify some of the confusion that can arise about the differences between completion and scoring – like when people think you have to score and complete a city to get trade goods tokens, etc, etc. I agree though that it is ultimately a matter of style.


Dumb mistake on my part! I have corrected it to “unoccupied feature”.


Seems to me that this has gone around the loop several times. There is reference to the matter in one of the HiG question-sets, but the latest FAQ (see the Volcano entry) is definitive. In answer to this issue it states: “The dragon eats everything within its reach (on its tile), regardless of whether it moves, is deployed or simply stands there.” I will have to change the figures document!!


Yes, I would like to change the numbering sometines, but I agreed with Matt to keep the overall turn conforming with the CAR's sequence and I have to live with that.


AND


We have a huge difference of interpretation here. One that I had never thought of before. I have followed Aldaron's approach and the approach we use – which is feature by feature scoring. If you score features separately there can be some tactics and strategy in selecting the scoring order when the Count is involved. This seems to me to be important.

I also believe that the original game and the Count rules contemplate feature by feature scoring. Note for example that the Count rules about moving meeples FROM Carcassonne use the word “feature” in the singular in all the critical sentences.

I would follow Aldaron's interpretation of how to take turns for moving meeples to each feature.

Seems to me that wagon movement should also be consistent with this. Although we have never had a situation where a tile completed a feature containing two wagons that belonged to someone other than the placing player and that seems to me to be the time when it would matter.

I think this might merit a separate thread and a question to HiG. I hope we hear from some of the regulars here about this too. In the meantime I will stick with the current version.


IF they are taken out :)


I will incorporate all of these points – thanks.

Hope to have new PDFs posted later today.

*appears*

I'm a little confused what we're debating about, so my following remarks may not be relevant.

I've only ever played with the Count once, so I don't understand how he can affect the decision of which features to score first when more than one is completed simultaneously. I'd appreciate an example. When multiple features are completed, the placing player may only deploy one follower to Carcassonne. I think this would happen before the features are scored, so this is where decision-making is applied.

I'm also not very familiar with Aldaron's work, but I agree that consistency is good.

Anyways, it seems to me that the issue I'm supposed to be commenting on is the situation when multiple features are completed and at least two of them are occupied by a wagon. This situation is described in the rules; wagon movement begins with the placing player and goes clockwise around the table.

@Scott, here is the issue in a (rather large) nutshell ..

Is the scoring sequence:

1. Tile-placing player selects one of the completed features to score
2. Take turns around the table moving meeples from City of Carc to that feature (if you wish and rules otherwise allow)
3. Determine majorities, determine fairy bonus, resolve cloister/shrine challenges, calculate scores for that feature and move markers
4. Move any wagon(s) on that feature - resolving multiple wagons by turns as per rules.
5. Player selects the next feature and repeat from step 2

OR is it:

First: Take turns around the table moving meeples from City of Carc to any or all scoring features resulting from the placement of the tile (if you wish and rules otherwise allow). This would occur rather like the way it is described in the rules for the end of the game.

1. Tile-placing player selects feature to score
2. Determine majorities, determine fairy bonus, resolve cloister/shrine challenges, calculate scores for that feature and move markers
3. Select next feature and repeat from step 1

Last: Move any wagon(s) on the features - resolving multiple wagons by turns as per rules.

It rarely makes sense to do the scoring in such rigid order in actual play, but when the issue arises we use the first five-step method - for the reasons given in my post.

With that approach wagon movement can be tactically manipulated by the placing player choosing one order of scoring over another - forcing another player to move or remove a wagon and leaving himself with a better wagon move in the second feature chosen.

The Count stuff hardly makes any difference except when there are a lot of meeples  in Carc city and the multiple features to be scored have contests going or a big meeple subtlety placed etc. But if those conditions apply then it can make a big difference.

And it might matter even more one day in another expansion . . .  ;D

@Dwhitworth: I missed the FAQ But in that case it seems quote stupid, that you are allowed to place a pig or builder on a just placed vulcano tile (a it gets eaten immediately... :-[)

@Scott: I cannot think of an example where it makes a difference when the wagon movement is done, within ór after the feature scoring, So I guess this point is merely an esthetic one..

@Scott: here an example where it DOES make difference when the carcassonne deplyment is done: Player A finishes 2 cities with a Tile (for simplicity lets say with no followers), Player A has 1 follower in the Castle of Carc. Player B has 3 followers. If the players use the end-of-game procedures 1st. Player B will be able to get a majority in both cities(1-0 and 2-1). However when the deployment is done on feature basis, he is able to share at least 1 city! If player B puts 1 one follower from carcassonne on the 1st feature, A can equal this and share points, otherwise he can equal on the 2nd feature!

Thanks for the explanations guys!

Regarding the Count expansion, if you look at the rules for follower deployment to and from Carcassonne, under the bold text "How does that work in practice?", at the end of the first paragraph: "Then scoring continues as usual." This indicates to me that the scoring sequence is the first one that dwhitworth described, where deployment is per feature.

It bothers me a little bit that in version 4.0 of the CAR, right after the rules say that followers are deployed to the feature being scored, there's a footnote which says followers can be deployed to empty features too. It seems contradictory, as if the footnote is misplaced, but then it is mentioned again in another footnote regarding end of game, which is a clue that the footnote is in the right place after all. I would take this to mean that you can deploy followers to the feature being scored or to an empty feature, but not to an occupied feature which will be scored a few seconds from now?

Regarding wagon movement, the rules for the wagon state that the wagon is moved after the feature is scored, not after all features are scored. This also points to the first scoring sequence. I'm still a little confused about "leaving himself with a better wagon move in the second feature chosen". According to the rules, the wagon can only move to features which are both incomplete and unoccupied, so the wagon can't move to any feature that will be scored during the same turn. I do, however, understand how the placing player could force his opponent to remove their wagon. For example, the placing player lays a T-intersection road tile. Two of the three roads are occupied by a wagon; the third is unoccupied and incomplete. The placing player is able to move his wagon to the third road, forcing the other player to remove his wagon or move it elsewhere.

@mdjvz - I have been trying to think of situations where the sequence of scoring would make a difference for wagons. It seems to me that since the tile-placing player moves his/her wagon first then there is little difference in most situations. I can think of places where I may want to force you to move your wagon first – even if that meant me giving up a large uncompleted feature – maybe I need to know your strategy and the sacrifice is worth it. But these situations are probably very infrequent and rather subtle.

However, given the importance of relative scoring, there may be times when I want one of my opponents to have an advantage – namely the one wo has a lower score than me, and maybe at the same time penalize another player with a higher score.

Suppose I lay a tile that completes two roads and that two of my opponents have their wagons placed one on each of those roads. (since I have no wagon in this scenario you must assume I have some decent reason for laying the tile.) Furthermore suppose that those roads both terminate in the same large incomplete city (say one cleared by the dragon). The opponent who moves his/her wagon first has the chance to occupy that city. If one of those opponents has a very low score and the other is ahead of me, I might want to allow the low score opponent the chance to move his/her wagon first. I can do this if features (the roads in this case)  are scored one at a time and I can choose the order of scoring. If all features are scored first and then wagon movement takes place in sequence around the table, the higher scoring player might get the first choice of the city by coming first in the table order.

This kind of situation is probably very rare, but it would make a difference.

So even with the Wagon, it matters ::)

I guess it is worth a Question to HiG in the next round of questions

Yes I think we should send this one to HiG next time

So here is Scott's "trigger word" for searches so we can find it "next time"  :)

Tiberius

Given the way the rules say the player placing the tile moves his or her wagon first, I'd say that all scoring would be perfomed before respective wagons are moved. 

Likewise, with the Count, all players would place their followers from Carcassonne before the scoring begins.