Carcassonne Central

RGG:s take on the 6th expansion: http://tinyurl.com/3apbnj

"Three black tiles"  hmm ...

Nice find. Very interesting. I wonder if the 'War' expansion is similar to 'Cathars'?

Probably not. It looks to me as if he wants to actually make an expansion, and not just suck money from true fans of the game. Cathars could however use some reprinting. Well, to be honest: I've got no idea  ;)

Hmm, So RGG invent another expansion (or maybe two if the black tiles are counted). I wonder if they will playtest it with all the other expansions and produce clear rules?   :) and I wonder if they will be 1st edition compatible or 3rd edition compatible ;D

Oh Well it will undoubtedly stimulate a lot more discussion here  - and give Matt some more work to do on the CAR.

It may also give us a small improvement to the game as well. At least we will get the Shrines in North America soon.

So this expansion is 12 tiles in total, just nice for a mini-expansion-sized tuckbox...

And black tiles?  Hmm...

Also, do you think he'll print the set expansion logos on the tiles?

Bother - this is bad news in my book.

I was looking forward to getting the tiles from King and Scout that were marked in a similar way to my Big Box tiles.

What do to now?

I can only see one sensible way forward - I am going to have to buy the German version and the RGG version.

Bother.

I agree. This is a real pain. Obviously, I'll want to have both sets too, and I guess many people will. And what do WE call these sets? Are they the US and EU versions of the same expansion? Are they two different expansions? Two different compilations? Yep, pain in the…

I'm thinking that we should set up an exchange network or something. Here's my three suggestions:

Like, I'll buy and post you the HiG edition if you buy and post me the RGG edition. Any takers?

Although I guess there aren't to many people around here who will have access to the HiG edition. So I there will probably be people who would like me to buy the HiG, which I'll post, in exchange for a transfer to my Paypal account. Again, any takers?

btw, @richardbrand: "Bog Box"?

LOL

Yep, that's what i'm going to do, get both versions! :)

@Matt: Unfortunately, I have already purchased the HiG version ;) ... I just couldn't wait! lol

Does anyone know where I can find a look "inside" the box of K,C&C?  Is the only meeple in that box the count?

Bog Box? Oops...

Corrected now - thanks :-)

There's no reason to get the HiG version, since that's just a reprint of old stuff - and five tiles that's also included in the RGG version wich only gives you new stuff.

I agree with Richard that this is bad news. I was expecting RGG to release just the five shrine/cult tiles and that would be the end of it, but adding his own War tiles? I smell GQ11 all over again. And the "creativity" part sounds really lame to me. If he wants to cater to fan-made expansions, just give us a supply of however many tiles we want through mail-order or something.


I'm interested.

I'm with Tobias on this one. I can just buy the RGG version and then I will have all the tiles. Admittedly the ones I have from the mini expansions won't be nicely marked, but the set will be comlplete without having to buy a second copy of everything except the hermit tiles in the HiG set.

In January when I was last in a games store here in Canada there were a lot of copies of all the mini expansions on the shelves. I guess RGG don't want to include them in a set like HiG did as it would make all this stock redundant - at least at the current prices.

The war expansion sounds like it may be a real expansion (with rules) - unlike GQ11. But the black tiles sound a bit odd, but I suppose we have to wait and see.

But I do like the idea of buying extra tiles ad-hoc from RGG. I have had them send extra meeples when a set was incorrectly packaged. They must have access to random parts. Maybe I will email Jay and ask.
 

The count is indeed the only token in the box. To take a look at the tiles you can follow this post: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=227.0 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=227.0)

Hermit tiles?  What are those?

Hmm... I was wondering how the box internals look and how much space was taken up by the tiles in the box, and not the tiles per se.

The box is the same size as the other expansions I&C, T&B, A&M etc. It has the same cardboard insert as these expansions.

I am already bringing back one copy of the HiG Consorts, although my bags are pretty full now with other assundries but I can certainly obtain and ship copies of RGG from the US to others. I can ship at a steep discount ... as in free ;D

Thanks.

I don't think the RGG expansion will be in such a box though.  I think it'll be a mini-tuckbox like Rivers or King & Scout.

Don't you like the small boxes? I very much prefer them to the mostly empty bigger versions.

The larger boxes fit on my shelf nicer.  ;D

The smaller boxes fit inside my Big Box nicely

I hope it's the smaller boxes!  I don't have that much shelf space anyways.

Europe.... USA, In feel I'm stuck in the middle in the UK! Not seen much news of either for release here.

Hmm... this expansion is scheduled for April 2008... does anyone have any news about this besides what we've had so far?

Is this expansion still planned for a September release?
Where can I get hold of it as soon as possible,
directly from Rio Grande, or from some seller in Europe (or even Sweden).

I would also appreciate if someone that already have got the Graf, König und Konsorten expansion, could send me the rules for the Cult tiles (in english).
Cheers
.../Patrik

Cult, War and Creativity will be by Rio Grande.  It's probably faster to order it from them, although it'll be the most expensive option for you if you're in Europe.  The English rules for the Cult tiles in Graf, König und Konsorten is part of the .  I'm not sure if it is also available in the downloads section, but I think it is also there.

You have a few options (if you want to get it in Sweden):
http://www.serieborsen.se/spel.html (great place, a tad more expensive than other shops, but the owner is a great guy and I try to buy as much as possible from him).
http://www.worldofboardgames.com/ (you probably know about them).
http://www.spel-landet.se/ (never ordered from them myself, but I intend to since they have some oddities in stock).
http://www.sfbok.se/ (obviously).

Now, I do not know where you live, you might have a great shop next door who will get you whatever you ask them to, and - really - support your local shop as much as you can :)

It is seldom really recommendable to order from abroad, the shipping prices are steep. And do not be surprised if you are asked (told!) to pay VAT.

Happy hunting!

Nice list, I totally agree that one should support your local shop where possible.  I've been looking for years, but nothing within 100km seems to want to go the extra mile  :-\

Thanks Tobias
Actually I have already ordered stuff from almost all you mentioned:
I&C, T&B, River II, Count, King & Scout from www.worldofboardgames.com
The Tower and Abbey & Mayor from http://www.spel-landet.se
Carcassonne collectors box from http://www.serieborsen.se/spel.html
And you're right, the owner was a great guy, me and my girlfriend drove 180 km to that shop and also bought Tsuro, Drakon and Guillotine while we were there.
BUT none of these shops seems to know when and if they will get Cult, War & Creativity so that's why I have asked around.
I am even on an Ebay auction for Graf, König und Konsorten right now. (Is there a english version of that expansion ?)

By the way, I told Matt (Harper) that I have made a swedish translation of the rules to Carcassonne and all expansions, and have even added his "If Pigs Could Fly" (I am a Monty Python fan) but have also added swedish translations of your variants "A New Lease Of Life" and "Rebuilding" to the complete rules, under the section "house-rules". I hope you don't mind.
Cheers
.../Patrik

No, there is not an english version of that expansion... yet...

but there is one in french  ??? :-\ ??? :-X :-\

so i see on the RGG that CW&C will be released on mid september... i still hope!

Here's the link for the RGG page: http://www.riograndegames.com/games.html?id=280

It will only cost $6, so I doubt it's going to be a full expansion.

I'm going to guess it's a 12 tile box like rivers, which means there'll only be 2 blank tiles instead of the previously announced 3.

Apparently Rio Grande has changed the title from Cult, war and creativity to Cult, siege and creativity.
Does that mean that the Siege tiles are the same as The Cathars ?
That would be good to know before I buy The Cathars on Ebay for huge sums of money.

No, the siege tiles are not Cathars, because RGG doesn't have the rights to those tiles.  They will be "something similar" to Cathars, but I haven't seen any reviews how similar they are going to be.

2 things, WHEN it will be available from RGG, and WHAT WILL be in the set(spoiler or some whatever thing to stop rusting our brakes... this situation is becoming pointless, and F'N annoying). so do someone have a good contact at RGG or HiG to sneak out some infos!!??????????

It is supposed to be available in September and will have 6 cult tiles, 4 siege tiles and 2 blank tiles as mentioned on the RGG page at http://www.riograndegames.com/games.html?id=280  .  That's all the infomation we have now.

Is anyone else here having trouble keeping up?  ;D

Not anymore for me.  If you are though, there's 2 threads here on the forums that may help you.

1. Upcoming Releases (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=299.0)
2. Carcassonne, the guide (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=400.0)

You didn't notice the smiley then?!  ???

Do we have any idea when this one's meant to arrive (on UK shores)... And does anyone actually know what the Seige tiles are?

I sent the following question to Jay:

And got a one word reply:

So there you have it!

I'm expecting the siege tiles will have (almost?) identical mechanics to the Cathar tiles, just without being called Cathars.

Well, we shall see...

I think it might be fun to guess what Jay's bonus shrine/temple tile will look like.

The five HiG/Spielbox tiles have the following configuation (clockwise from top):
ffff
rfrf
cfrf
ffrf
cfff

I can possibly see another cfrf with a short road between the shrine/temple and the city. Another possibility would be a tile with configuration frrf or ffrr (two roads, but at a 90 degree angle instead of straight through).

Does anybody know more about when this will be available?

It was supposed to be this month.

Check out Board Game Geeks page for it.  Somebody has it and got a scan of the tiles.  Its the Shrines + 1 new tile and The Cathars.

Excellent find scotty. Yep, 6 tiles for the Shrines. The Siege tiles are indeed very similar to the Cathars, but they are not the Cathars. I wonder how it plays? My bet is exactly the same ;)

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/379240 (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/379240)

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/379239 (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/379239)

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/379238 (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/379238)

Edit: Notice that there are no 'watermarks' on this release! The extra Shrine place is a 'crfr' layout.

My copy has now been ordered. Infinity Games (UK) (www.iguk.co.uk (http://www.iguk.co.uk)) had 14 copies in stock this morning :)

Finally I can stop trying to look fo the Cathars expansion at rip-off prices.

Release date in the UK was listed as 30th September.  Not sure if it is available in the US.  I have updated the guide to show that it's now available.

BGG hasn't updated their page for this yet...

Had anyone get the rules of Siege?

I think they will be the same rules as the Cathar tiles.  It's just that RGG can't use the name Cathar or the images or the tiles because they don't have the rights to do that.

Just got it and will be playing tonight. Its badged as Cult, Seige and Creativity in the UK. Was in my local games shop.

Report back this weekend on how it played.

steve, can you tell us if there is any expansion watermark on the tiles?  The images posted to BGG doesn't show a watermark.

From the links to the pictures supplied by Joff :

Does this mean it's supplied as a one of the the 'miniture' add-ons, and further more, is Seige available as a seperate set then? But not the others?

And from the picture of the tiles - One of those roads appears way off centre.

Wishmaster: It is a miniature add-on with 12 tiles (6 shrines, 4 siege, 2 blanks) in a box.  5 of the 6 shrine tiles are available separately (either from Spielbox HiG Almanac or from K,C&C).  The siege tiles are not (yet?) available separately.  It is only shown separately on the underside of the C,S&C box.  The other side (top) of the box still states "Cult, Siege & Creativity".That would be the new shrine/cult tile that Jay/RGG added.

Gents, the box is a small one just like King & Scout. The Seige tiles for all of those desperately searching for the Cathars is just that, YES its the Cathars !!! 2 blanks which is creativity which you can do what you like with and then the 6 cult tiles. So for £3.99 for 6 brand new tiles and two blanks it aint bad I suppose.

I don't expect we'll be seeing the siege tiles released separately.

Are the siege rules identical to Cathars rules? I would expect them to be at least extremely close.

I sent an e-mail to my FLGS this morning and just received a response that CS&C is not even in stock at the distributors yet, but he will e-mail me as soon as it comes in. The only information he knows is the same as what we know, that it was supposed to come out last month and he expects it to come out this month. (I wonder if this will affect Catapult's release schedule too?)

I can imagine Matt pulling his hair out when he gets back to working on the CAR. The extra shrine tile should probably be included with the other shrine tiles. Do the seige tiles get their own entry, or does it get combined with Cathars? (I'm leaning towards combined.) And what of the blank tiles? Not worthy of their own page...

I'm inclined towards it being separate for the siege tiles because that's the "new" part of the expansion and by new I mean new features on the tiles.  (Yes, there's also a new cult/shrine tile, but that has no new rules or features apart from what has already been revealed).

Otherwise, I agree with you Scott.  Point back to Koenig, Graf & Kulstuetten for the shrine tiles, and ignore the rules for the blank tiles (but mention about the blank tiles in the tile list sections).

Hmm... the abbey tiles were not included in the tile distribution lists, so I don't expect the blank ones would fit there either. Hard to classify considering they have no features.

I agree with Scott that they're not worth a new page, but the 'separate' structure is the one the rules have followed so far. Even if all the entry says is that the rules are given in other sections, I would still want to include the tile distribution list… But when I see the tiles & rules etc. properly I'll have a better idea of how to proceed.

The 2 blank tiles.... is that ALL they are? There's no rules for their use etc? Bit of a waste that if you ask me. Surely if you are going to make blank tiles available then justwo is a bit... well..... crap. Would be better to sell a die cut sheet of 12 as a completely seperate unit surely?

The "correct" way to address this in my mind is to have one entry per individually playable expansion.  Thus we have seperate expansion entries called: "The Cult", one called "The Siege / Cathars" and nothing for "creativity" etc...

We have several "Expansions":
- The entry for "the cult" will need to detail that there are three sources for these tiles, HiG's "cult, king & consort", RGG's "cult, siege & creativity" & Spielbox's "Die Kultstätten".  Also call out that the RGG release includes a 6'th tile.
- "the siege" has two releases: Spielbox's 2004 "Die Katharer" and RGG's 2008 "cult, siege & creativity"

Then, on BGG or here we describe the following compilations of expansions:
- the "cult, king & consort" entry should be described as a compilation of mini expansions: "the cult", "the river II", "the count" and "the king"
- the "cult, siege & creativity" entry should be described as a compilation too.

This way, MJHarper can upload the rules for each independent expansion on a different page.  I can include a tuckbox for each expansion rather than each compilation.

OK guys here is the low down..................Its a rip off if you already have the Cathars. Honestly this set adds nothing to the game unless you dont have Cathars.

Firstly the tiles are produced in a different color scheme which means that look very different to the rest of the game, there is no marking like A&M on them either. Second thing we noticed is the problem with the rules (probably suffers in the translation process again) where they make quotes like you cannot place a cult tile next to several cloisters, now several in english is more than three !! Also came across a problem in playing where there was one cult and one cloister diagonal from each other and I had a space to add a further cloister to give me nine points (no challenge as no meeple on other tiles) however because of the rule issue above we could agree if this was a legal placement or not.

The cloister/cult challenge is different. If you place either a cloister or cult next to each other and the tile already down has a monk/cultist on it then you issue a challenge and the first one to surround their tile gets the nine points where the other player gets zip.

Blank tiles are just and dont add anything to the game.

The siege tiles are slightly different as they depict a siege, with siege engines whereas the Cathars shows men and a broken wall, but apart from that the rules and scoring for this are exactly the same.

So not really worth them producing it, but if you like to ensure you have everything for the game then its only a few pounds, drachma, rubbles etc to shell out so not a vast ripoff.

If you've been quick off the mark in the past, then yes I see where you're going with the 'it's a rip-off bit. However, as of late there has been so much confusion over what's in what box I've (for once) held back a bit and not bought anything Carcassonne since Abbey and Mayor. From that angle this little box of tricks comes along as a bargain. I end up with the cult tiles for pretty much half the price as the magazine with an extra tile to boot, don't have ti buy a box with Count, River and King for a second time, get the new seige tiles (OK I've got Cathars but now get the new design) and two free blanks (albeit pretty useless). Now that is pretty good for such a low price and buy no means a rip-off.

Regards the seige and Cathars thing - I'd have thought several people here would be singing from the roof tops. The price of the Cathars on eBay over the past couple of years has gone through the roof - upwards of £30.00 for 4 tiles, and people here have been posting for where they could get hem etc....... so why are we having a downer on it when what everyone wanted is finally released?

And if you have got both sets, you might feel inclined to use my new variant, Invasion of Catharism, available in the Variant thread :) (shameless plug ;))

I am very pleased with the release of the siege tiles.

The blank tiles are kind of gimicky, I feel that someone nailed it on these forums earlier; blank tiles would have been of higher value if they came in a sheet and people could buy as few or as many sheets as they wanted. Two tiles is a bit silly.

The cult tiles came as a surprise to me. I ordered some of the Spielbox cult tiles so now I feel a bit bummed by that.

The catapult is just simply ridiculous.

Overall, they have created a ton of confusion and in many ways alienated the fan base for Carcassonne. I am a process improvement specialist and a project manager by trade and it offends me when things get overly complex. It would appear no body is at the helm steering the vision of Carcassonne. Complexity is failed simplicity, and they have made this much more complex and confusing than it needs to be. I have decided I no longer need to be a Carcassonne completist and will focus more on reading, printing, and playing variants in the variant registry on this site.

The future of this game lies with the fan base in my opinion. Carcassonne Central is much more organized and progressive than the original game creator / distribution channels.

/end rant

Although I will continue to be a Carcassonne completist, I want to emphasise a point made by Novelty on the other thread: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=372.15 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=372.15)


Of course, I don't want anybody, including Novelty, to stop. However, he does have a valid point. There are many fan made variants/expansions that could easily be considered worthy (and sometimes better than those that are official) to have a place as an official expansion in its own right. In my opinion, if there is a stand-out-from-the-crowd fan made variant/expansion then HiG/RGG should fund the originator and get it produced, instead of the rotten rubbish that probably is the Catapult (mind you, we have not had the chance to actually play it yet!). It makes economic sense for HiG/RGG, and rewards the person that put in time, effort, loyalty and thought.

Having not seen the rules for Siege myself I have one question.

Do they allow a knight in the city to escape via a cloister?

If not there is a minor difference from The Cathars.

-crasher

Heh, we have to get more organised because it's so confusing out there.  Basically 2 companies are controlling the product, HiG in Europe and RGG in North America and both of them don't seem to agree as to what is to be done (i.e. reprints count/no count, extra shrine tile, etc.).  Add to that other distribution outlets (Games Quarterly, Spielbox), spin-offs (New World/Mayflower) and things get confusing quickly.

I have to say I like the 2 blank tiles.  But that shouldn't be a surprise from me.  Get another 2 more of those tiles and I could print out Cathars and stick them to get my own set of Cathars.

I like the siege tiles.  It means I can play with the Cathar rules eventhough I don't have the Cathar tiles... at least until I get my 2nd box of C,S&C.

I'm pleased with this expansion overall.  I'm glad I don't have to get the german version with a second copy of count & river2.  The only issue I have with this expansion is that there is no watermark, but I can live with that.

I haven't seen the rules as well, but from what I was told the answer is yes.  The rules simply swapped out "Cathar tiles" for "siege tiles"

If anybody is upset about having both Cathars and Siege in their possession, I'll gladly take the Cathars tiles off your hands. :D

I'm also disappointed about the direction things are headed, but hopefully it's just temporary insanity.

two reasons in my mind...

1. some of us were the ones who spent a lot to get the "impossible" tiles.  Making them cheap makes us feel less special.
2. the art looks incredibly confusing.  The Monk icon wasn't the best looking, but it was visually clear what was going on.

Fair comment.... but at the end of the day this is actually what people have been asking for - The Cathars effectively reprinted and a way of getting the new cult tiles without having to buy the other mini sets again. so to my mind that's what they've done, and when I find a copy I'll be happy - despite having Cathars set already!

But they aren't cheap.  They are still expensive.  It's just that now, there is an official alternative to getting them, but that doesn't detract from the fact that those Cathar tiles out there are still rare and therefore expensive.  Completists will still have to hunt down the Cathar tiles at exorbitant prices to complete their collection.

I am actually really pleased with this release. Yes, I do have the Cathars and yes, I already own 2 sets of 5-tile shrines (although my KC&C shrines will be going to my new found gaming family (my sister and her husband) as a freebie). Of course, i'd rather they had placed a watermark on the tiles, but hey, you can't have everything!!!

I will use the Siege tiles in my games, but by using them with the Cathers as per my variant, as this will allow greater flexibility for using the Cathars and the Siege tiles together in a single game and in a unique way. At times I drawn a Cathar tile, but wanted the configuration to complete a city that I owned, without incurring the Cathars penalty, which is what my variant adresses! You see it looks as if they are getting ready to battle on the Siege tiles... replacing with a Cathar tiles means that they have penetrated the city! Simple concept and works.

Joff, dont get that last posting. The siege tiles in the new set are clearly depicting a city wall under siege, the cathars tiles show the besieging force with a breached wall. Dont see the difference myself when it comes to tile placement.

Joff is using his imagination to pretend that a Cathar tile refers to a success while a Siege tile refers to a failure.

It is imagination :)

I see the local armies lining up outside the city walls getting ready to take the city by force to expel the Cathars. The battle lines are drawn... they might take the city by force and break the wall down as the entrance to the city is heavily guarded by Cathar extremists ;)... if they do the Siege tile is replaced with a Cathars tile.

Thanks to Joff, I got the image for the top of the box (see Carcassonne the guide (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=400)) and the bottom.  Here's the bottom with the 4 shrine tiles shown.

(http://www.dukenostalgia.com/junk/CSCbottom.jpg)

Joff also sent me the flattened box showing the sides as well!  Thanks again, Joff!

Just got an e-mail from the owner of my FLGS saying that he has this in stock now.

For those who purchases it online, it's also available on Funagain.com

Just got back from the store. I'm a little surprised that the blank tiles have a canvas finish to them. Are they expecting people to paint on them?

I think that's the only finish available.  I think they are expecting people to draw on them...

finally got those, glad that there is mors "cathar/siege" tiles to bring more value to the farms/farmers/piggy

Mine arrived in the post the other day (paid twice as much on postage as the thing cost in the first place). Very nice. I'm more excited about this than The Catapult in fact. The new siege tiles are very pretty. I'm inclined to think they're really like The River II was to the original river set, and I think they should be listed that way in the CAR. Effectively, we now have eight Cathar tiles, which is good. And the modification to the escape rule—that a cloister must be adjacent to a besieged city rather than a Cathar (or siege) tile is an improvement too. All in all, an elegant solution to the copyright issue. Thanks, RGG!

The shrine tiles are not even the focus, but still put the Spielbox set to shame for including a new tile. Welcome as well.

Started work on the new draft of the CAR…

I think this calls for {wv {wv {wv {wv

I think so too :)  {wv {wv {wv {wv

Oh, the pressure ;D

{wv {wv {wv {wv ;D

You can do it Matt :)  Will we have a sneak preview by the end of this weekend?

Where did you order it from? I can not find it at my usual stores here in Sweden.

Glad Matt got a copy as my local supplier hasnt had anymore in since his first delivery. I shall stop calling them now Matt  ;D

It's available at Amazon UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Carcassonne-The-Cult-Siege-Creativity/dp/B001HESQ7C).  I don't think Amazon.de has it...

Are the siege tiles functionally the same as the cathar tiles?

Yes, but it looks much better IMO :)

There is a variant, Invasion of Catharism for those who have both Cathars and Siege tiles.

http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=442.0 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=442.0)

I know you can pick it up easy enough on the net but given it's very low cost the P&P almost doubles it's price. However, as I discovered last friday, a lot of game shops operate on tight budgets so won't stock it as they have to buy a minimum of 12 sets cos they come packed for shops - Amnd as one shop owner explained, it's not exactly a high volume seller and would stuck with the majority of them. So looks like it will be a net purchase after all.

I guess I should make someone happy by ordering 24 sets :)

By the way, Novelty... HiG won't send me anymore blank tiles. They sent me my second package but they won't send anymore. I guess we're on the same ship, now!

As they said to me, it's meant to be replacement tiles, and not for sale.  The 1 euro per sheet is only to cover shipping.  I guess you'll have to start buying cheap copies of River 2 and CS&C like me ;D

Yes. Just now, when I was thinking that it was good to live in Europe!  ;D

It's still good.  You got 35 sheets for 1 euro each, so that's not too bad :)

Have you tried offering them more money?

I think that may backfire.  As they said to me, they are not selling the blank tiles, only providing it as a free replacement service.  The money that is paid is for postage & handling.