Carcassonne Central

As newbie I would like to know what is different (except imbuement) between these houses, please.

They are slightly different color...

Is this relevant to Carcassonne?

Except colour, sorry.
It depends on the difference.
Maybe it was solved here, but I didn't find any footnote.

I'm confused. Where are you getting the pictures of these houses from?

Unless I'm much mistaken, they are both inns, and they're only available in I&C and The River II. I hope that no future expansion contains roadside lakes without inns, because most of us are so familiar with the visual indicator of the lakes that we forget it's actually the inns that a being scored.

I agree that there's no difference in terms of game play.

Both inns? The first is from GQ 11 (spring), the second from I&C or The River II. The first is the inn (probably). The second is inn on the lake. Only the second is counted .... (Yes?) ;)

Edit: There is interesting to compare German and English rules for I&C By my poor knowledge of German, there isn't any word about lake in paragraph (in heading of chapter yes) concerning inns. In "English" version (RGG) the word lake there is.

Condemned by my own words… Well spotted! I don't think any of us that considered that the building on the spring tile from GQ11 was actually an inn—because there is no lake! But it is indeed an inn…

So, what now? There's no chance of a HiG ruling on this, since GQ11 is a RGG expansion. And, given Jay's ruling that the pig-herd tile is not a pig-herd tile—even though it seemed clear to everyone else that it was—I think it's safe enough to assume that, if we ask, he'll tell us that it isn't a 'proper' inn.

But what do you guys think? Should the GQ11 be scored as an inn or not?

I'll add a footnote to the GQ11 section of the CAR…

No. It would cause confusion.

I believe the RGG I&C rules make a distinction and call it 'Inn on the Lake'. These are the rules from RGG standard expansion:

"Inn on the Lake (6 tiles)
If one or more of the segments of a completed road contain an Inn on the Lake, the thief earns 2 points per road segment (number of tiles) for the player. If such a road is not completed by the end of the game, the thief scores 0 points for the player!" (bold emphasis mine)

The tile from GQ11 is not an 'Inn on the Lake'.

What does the RGG/HiG Big Box rules say?

I just checked; both the original and the Big Box rules (HiG) do actually say 'an inn by a lake'—so it probably does make sense to say it doesn't count as an 'inn' for scoring purposes. Still, you could argue that it is 'by a spring', and that it's much the same thing.

However, if nothing else, there's an error in the CAR which needs to be corrected. I'll add the clarification 'inn by a lake' to the I&C rules, and a footnote to GQ11 saying that, although it looks like an inn, it doesn't fulfil the requirements.

I agree with Joff.  I don't think it counts as an "Inn on the lake" for the purpose of scoring roads.  Is there anything in GQ11 to suggest one way or the other whether it counts as an inn for the scoring of roads?

Let the arguments commence! I'll get in first by saying that a spring is the source of a river and a lake is what the river flows into! ;)

So, no, one cannot argue that they are the same thing ;)  ;D

GQ11 came with no rules, which is why the intial confusion about the (not) pig herd tile. I'm inclined to agree that the inn on the spring doesn't qualify for bonus points. However, I think Jay should be sent an e-mail anyway to get his official opinion. He'll either confirm, in which case that's what he gets for using the inn artwork, or he'll surprise us and say that it does count for bonus points.

It's only a matter of time before the Lawyers of Carcassonne get their hands on this, and they're going to want proof.

Can someone point me to the "That is not a pig tile" comment?

Page 39 of CAR (Paragraph 4 in main text and footnote 116 for the official verdict).

Ah, but that just means they're two ends of the same process, in this case a waterway. I'm going to argue (much less believe ;) ) that they are the same, but there's clearly a closer connection between the GQ11 tile and a normal 'inn by a lake' than there would be if the inn was, say, stranded alone in the middle of a field, or stood next to a tower foundation in a city.

I would argue that it is inarguable that they are closer; but are they close enough to warrant equal scoring?
 {dh

Wow, a half day away on the trip (I think that nice sunyday was in Jena too  :)) and such a wind. Thank you very much boys for your interest. I like what Joff said (to insist on Inn on the Lake) and I agree with Scot, but, but ...
Inn on (or at?) the Spring?? I am confused  ???  ;D

Out of topic. May I ask somebody here for sending good scan (300 dpi is enough) of "american" version of tiles "CRCR" (see below)?
No, no another surprise  ;), only for completing of my collection. Thanks.

Seriously though, the rules do state that it is an Inn on the Lake that scores, and it also provides a picture of what an Inn on the Lake should look like, so I would definately maintain that the Inn on the Spring is not the same as an Inn on the Lake. Of course, if RGG rule that it is a scoring Inn, we might as well 'pack up and go home', what with a pig herd that's not a pig herd and then a Inn that scores without a lake... what are they doing?  ???  ;)

@ O.M.S: American version of 'CRCR'? Do you mean Big Box version?

Making it up as they go along :??

If Jay were to say that the Inn on the Spring is the same as the Inn on the Lake, we would then have to challenge him on the Pig Herd tile because IMHO that's a lot closer call.

@OMS, the Big Box version of that CRCR tile has a clump of trees over the intersection to clarify that the road does not continue through. I don't have the Big Box so I can't scan for you, but I know I've seen a picture of it somewhere.

Oh sorry, yes, Big Box version.

Yes, I know what is on. The tile (its picture) is in CAR, page 62.

It is, but it isn't a very high quality image—just a crop from the rule book. I can crop it at a better setting, but it still won't be much good because it's about a quarter of the size of the tile. And I don't have the Big Box either…

I am patient, thanks.

On the other hand, is there anyone who does not play with that pig herd tile as being a .. pig herd tile?

I've only played the expansion once, and when I did we had no idea what a pig herd tile was because we had not played River II yet (and still haven't). I remember somebody asking what it was when it was pulled from the bag. I figured it was just an empty field tile with no special significance. Now that I know better, the rebellious part of me wants to use it as a pig herd tile, but the rest of me wants to follow the rules. Besides, farmers score enough points already.

If it were allowed to be used as a pig herd tile, another ruling would need to be made about what happens when both are on the same farm. Probably only one would count for points.

Maybe challenge is too strong a word.  We should definately reconfirme with him that the Pig Herd tile is not a pig heard tile if he says that Inn on Spring is the same as Inn on Lake.

We NEVER have played with the pig herd tile (either the pretend one in the GQ expansion or the River II real one). We don't think the game needs it! Certainly not if you have Traders and Builders in the mix.

That only means that you still see it as a pig herd tile - since you actively chose not to regard it as thus.  ;)

If it wasn't seen as a pig herd tile, the discussion wouldn't even come up. For example we usually don't count points for the fairy. But it's still a fairy!

Okay, maybe I'm unfair. But to me it's blatantly obvious that a tile with a pig herd on it - is a pig herd tile.

Edit: Typo

Yes it's a pig herd... pretend or not!!!

That's a good question, but not one I know who to ask. RGG would just reply that it isn't a pig-herd tile; and HiG would be hard pushed to rule on it because even if it is a pig-herd tile, it isn't in one of their expansions.

I'd agree with your interpretation—multiple pig-herds don't score more.

And, personally, I think it's churlish to say it isn't a pig-herd tile. What's the difference between it and the tile in The River II. One has six pigs and a 'barn', the other has ten pigs, a 'barn' and a stretch of river. No other tile contains pigs. There's no question in my mind that it's a pig-herd tile, and we always play it as one. But…

But basically the GQ11 was a poor expansion which amounted to advertising. Billed as having 'never before seen' configurations, it really just took old tiles and added a graphical element somewhere. But none of the graphical elements were actually considered as game play elements.

Hey, we want to add a road to a spring tile, in needs to end in a building; look, here's one, let's use that. What, you mean that's an inn? Who cares?

The decision that it was not a 'pig-herd' tile was not, in my mind, a 'ruling' as such, but a statement of 'I don't care'. No respect for the game, the players, or even the expansion you've just released. It was an exercise of power, and that's all.

I know that sounds harsh, but it's what I think.
 {cf

This follows. It would be the same as, dare I say it, having two or more 'Inn on the Lake' tiles on a stretch of road, it only scores as if one is on the road, or two cathedrals in a city, again only one is scored (or not in both cases...  ;l7). If there is a greater majority in a city, you only score once for the city. So I would nod  in agreement, multiple pig herds don't score more in your farm, you only score them once. It just deprives another farmer of extra points, in a similar way to an 'Inn on the Lake'.

Exactly the right comparison, I'd say.

I've just noticed that—notwithstanding my grumbling earlier—there actually is a precedent for the building at the end of a road which looks like an inn, but isn't.
(http://homepage.mac.com/mjharper/puzzle/pages/cfrr02/images/0.jpg)
As I'm sure you know, this is from Traders and Builders. In the rules, this is described as a 'Häuschen'—a little house. Not an inn. I'm inclined to think that this settles it.

I stand by my comments about GQ11 and the pig-herd tile, though.

Yepp, that's how we play as well.

This whole controversy about the GQ "Expansion" and Matt's comments about RGG's power makes me wonder if this tile set should be accorded the status of an expansion. It seems to me that RGG have not really excecised thier power at all. They have refused to excercise that positive power that they could have used for the benefit of the game. (Hmmm, I suppose that is still a (negative) power play).

An expansion should at the very least meet the criteria that are set for a variant - which this set of tiles does not. If the expansion is issued by a game publisher it should in addition to rules require responsibility for after market support.

So I conclude that the GQ tile set is just that. A set of extra tiles that can, at your option, be included in whole or in part. If you include them you are on your own to make up rules where there are oddities like the pig tile and "inn". The HiG rules - or at least the spirit of them - can be a guide to how you interpret the oddities, but there is no official rule and they are all house rules at best.

IMHO I suggest that the CAR reflect this by lowering the status of the GQ tile set to something less than an Expansion to make its status really clear.

The only other choice is for this community to get some official rule making/influencing input (presumably just with HiG) and then when we can agree on an interpretation - as this thread has shown we generally can - then that interpretation be accepted as the rule. Not really likely to happen I guess . . . .
 

I don't really think that we can 'demote' GQ11, although I see what you're saying. After all, it is an official release, even if a very poor one. And, strictly speaking, it does 'expand' the game—it add tiles, most of which are new, if unexciting.

Unfortunately, it's virtually impossible that we could achieve an official status on these issues. Even if we could work something out with HiG, the problem here is that GQ11 comes from RGG. HiG will not comment on GQ11, and RGG have the final word. Which, if you think about it, is the way it should be. As you say, it's just sad that RGG chose not to do anything positive with the opportunity.

Anyway, what would we demote GQ11 to? 'Officially released material which sucks because it could have been better'? ;D

I wouldn' like to establish a new science, houseology  ;)
But you compare "building on the spring" to building from T&B (on page 44, footnote 132). OK, but building from T&B has entirely different roof on outbuilding (I hope that is correct word  ::)) and it probably hasn't chimney. I know, it is comparison. But mainly, the building from T&B is not alone, it is on two tiles (one according to "topology" - FRRR) from Basic and one from P&D (again FRRR) too. The whole collection below.

You might be right—it doesn't look like an inn if you look closely. I'd added it to the CAR, but I'll find a more careful way to say it. Maybe if RGG had used this house, we wouldn't have the confusion.

Still, the main point is that an inn must have a lake to count.

I kind of like your idea of houseology, though. :)

I also see what dwhitworth is saying, but I agree with Matt we can't demote it. If it bothers you that much, you could start a petition. Easy enough to reach Jay through BGG once you've got a bunch of signatures.

Since we're getting into houseology, I decided to compare the pig-herd and not-pig-herd tiles. The pig-herd tile features 11 pigs, a barn with a fence, and a farmhouse. The not-pig-herd tile features 6 pigs, 2 cows, and a barn with a fence; no farmhouse. Does the lack of farmhouse make it not a pig-herd tile? Or is it the presence of the cows?

According to Wikipedia, a herd is a large group of animals. Is six not large enough to be a herd? I went looking to the Internet for an answer, but although most people wouldn't consider such a small number a herd, they all admit that technically a herd is more than one. Other definitions for herd do not specify anything regarding size.

If somebody started a petition to get the ruling changed, I'd sign it. If RGG cares about their expansion as much as some people here are saying, maybe they can be swayed?

The lack of a farmhouse would be like the lack of a lake for an inn…

I'll sign any petition. ;) I suppose there's more chance of getting them to change their mind about this than about 1st edition scoring…

I'll e-sign the petition for it to be declared as a pig herd tile, and to get a ruling on the inn by the spring.

I'll sign for it to be considered a pig herd... , and to get a ruling not to score for the inn  ;l7

OK! I still think that the GQ is not an "expansion" in any meaningful way, but I will bow to the majority on this.  {nw

I am happy to sign a petition about the inn/spring tile - NOT being an "Inn on the Lake".

But as regards the pig herd tile I had always assumed that the "pigherd" was a person (or meeplehobbit) who cares for pigs like a shepherd cares for sheep. Therefore I had assumed that the extra power of the tile was that the pigs so carefully farmed would enhance the output of the farm and hence the extra point. This would not be important (especially to me who does not have the GQ tile-set) but if the GQ pig herd tile has no house for the pigherd to live in, then I wonder if it can have the same value to the economics of the farm . . . .  ;D In fact maybe he does not live there at all and it is not a Pigherd's tile

As we say in Canada: Houseology Eh?

Maybe, tileology could be more suitable  ;D

That has some "truthiness" in it?

Maybe so, but it certainly adds an element of "strategery"!

I'll throw my 2 cents in on this issue.  I prefer to count the pigs as a heard despite the ruling its not and we play the house as an Inn for double points. As was noted earlier no rules were supplied with the tiles and expansion or not I think this would fall under House Rules or a variant with people agreeing at the beginning of the game whether or not to count them as such.  IMHO why have a picture of a pig herd and an Inn by some water that closely resembles elements from HiG if they are not to be counted as such. So maybe Matt can clarify in the CAR that these tiles did not come with ruls or clarifications, site and correspondance with GQ11 and RGG on official rulings but leave the question open to House Rules. It is much less confusing to me to count them as they appear then to say this is and this isn't and have everyone squinting at tiles.

Although this option my be inappropriate but maybe put the weight of CC to work and make a decision within the forum and put it to a vote and include that as a footnote to the CAR on the ruling for these cards.

FYI these we be perfect tiles for the Section on Problem tiles suggested in another posting  ;)

I am not so sure. It seems to me that The Inn on the Lake and the Cathedral are both multiplicative tiles in that they multiply the value of every tile in the Road or City respectively, whereas pigs and pigherd tile(s) are additive features, as they merely 'add one' to the point value of each connected city.

We use both pigherd tiles which has led to farms with cities worth 6 points each (3 base + pig + 2 pigherd tiles).

Power to the farmers I say :-)

But the fact that pigs and pig-herd tiles can be added together is only due to the fact that they're different—one's a meeple, the other a tile.

Also, I'm not convinced that the inn and the cathedral are multipliers. The cathedral adds a single point to every city segment (from 2 to 3), and so does the inn (although you could argue that it doubles the value from 1 to 2). AFAIK, the only strictly multiplicative factor in the game is the Cathar tile, which doubles the value for farms…

Also, as Matt pointed out earlier, there is a precedent in T&B of reusing the Inn artwork without the lake at the end of that bridge. That should be enough to lay this issue to rest, leaving just the pig herd issue to moan and groan about.

Matt: Could you ask HiG about the road ending at an inn (without the river) from A&M?  Does the inn count as an inn on that tile?

This house doesn't look like an inn.

I'm as sure as I can be that it isn't an inn—it isn't even credited as being a house in the rules…

It sounds like somebody needs to make a building identification guide. ;D

Yay for building identification guide... does it go in the CAR?