Carcassonne Central

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Post #15 contains the current turn summary that is being discussed.
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I decided I needed a quick break from programming and wrote up a "turn summary" based on my current understanding of the rules and using a programmers approach to the issue.  I would like to thank Whaleyland for his synopsis of a turn, as it was my starting point and inspiration to type this up.  He made me ask myself, which rules would I program from (HiG or RGG) and how would I have the computer sort them out during execution.  And of course last but not least, I make no claim what-so-ever on knowing all the rules and their timing.  Please feel free to comment and share examples on where and how my "turn summary" can be improved and/or corrected.


Any time during your turn you may do the following:
   Buy back any of your imprisoned followers.
   Ask for advice.
   Read the rules for the expansions you are playing with.

Step 1:  Begin Turn
   If the Fairy is next to one of your followers, score 1 point.

Step 2:  Draw a Tile
   a) If you have an Abbey tile you may draw it in place of drawing a regular tile.
   b) Show the tile to all players.
   c) If Wheel of Fate Icon is on the tile, resolve Wheel of Fate.

Step 3:  Place the Tile
   a) If Volcano Symbol is on the tile, place the Dragon on this tile and skip Step 4.
   b) If Princess Symbol is on the tile, and the tile is added to an existing castle with a knight on it,
      remove a knight of your choice and Skip Steps 4 and 5.

Step 4:  Move the Wood (Phase 1).  You may do one and only one of the following:
    Deploy a Follower.
    Deploy the Large Follower.
    Deploy the Mayor.
    Deploy the Wagon.

Step 5:  Move the Wood (Phase 2).  If you did nothing during Step 4, you may do one and only one of the following:
    Move the Fairy.
    Deploy the Pig.
    Deploy the Builder.
    Deploy the Barn.
    Place a Tower piece.
    Place a Follower on the Wheel of Fate.


Step 6:  Resolve Move the Wood.
   a) If Dragon symbol was on tile placed, move the Dragon.
   b) If Tower piece was placed, resolve possible capture of a follower. If two players have captured one of each other's followers,
      they are immediately exchanged.

Step 7:  Resolve all completed Features.
   a) Collect Trade tokens.
   b) If Fairy is next to a follower, that players owner receives 3 points.
   c) All players may move one or more Followers from the City of Carcassonne.

Step 8:  Scoring.
   a) Resolve control of each completed feature, tally points for that completed feature and award points to controlling player.
   b) Move any Wagons on completed features to any adjoining unoccupied uncompleted feature.  
      If more than one wagon can move, current player moves first and then proceed clockwise.  
   c) If you did not score any points from any of the completed features you may place a follower in City of Carcassonne.
      Then you may move the Count to a quarter of your choice.
   d) If the completed feature is a castle and/or road, check to see if it is the new largest one and receive the King and/or Robber Baron.

Step 9:  Resolve Turn
   a) Return all followers from completed features to their owner.
   b) If the Fete symbol was on tile placed, use Catapult.
   c) If the Builder was already on part of the feature added to, repeat Steps 2 thru 9b once more and only once more.



As I was writing this up I thought of two interesting questions from a programmers stand point.

1) Fairy next to follower.  Does this mean if there are 7 followers on a single tile do all 7 followers score the point.  Example: tile RRRR that terminates in the center with one follower on each road and one follower on three of the four farms. And just in case you might miss how that might happen; six of the seven followers were placed on the tile thru portal tiles.

2)  On Step 7 parts B and C.  Should they be switched?  If you switch them it is possible to score more points with the fairy because there is no rule, that I am currently aware of, that restricts which tile you place the followers on when moving from the City of Carcassonne.

Do you not get points ("score") for features completed with the builder's extra tile?

LOL, my bad.  I relabeled everything twice and missed that update.  Thanks for pointing that out!

I found this while searching for something else.  But this is very similar to what I came up with, except I used shorthand and pictures.
http://gwommy.tripod.com/carcassonne/TurnOverview.pdf

The way that I interpret it is that the instructions don't say "each follower", therefore, if a player has the fairy next to one or more of their followers at the beginning of their turn, then that player gets the 1 point.  Similar idea works for scoring features. Each player only gets 3 points for a finished feature no matter how many followers are on the same tile as the fairy.  I also award the player 3 points if they didn't win majority and scored no points for that feature. Just as long as the fairy is there then you get the 3 points.

I would move Step 7b somewhere into step 8. As from the sounds of the rules, the 3 points from the fairy doesn't take place until after scoring.

I think that you can only buy back imprisoned at the start of your first turn(in the case of an extra turn by builder). You never mention when you receive the goods for completing a city with goods.

I like this very much, thanks!

Step 8d should be in step 7

I'd like to use this as a basis for the turn overview in the CAR, fully credited of course. Hope that's okay :)

BWAHAHAHAHA!

I just downloaded your BETA 9 to review what you have added to see how it affects my summary since I am now getting back into playing Carcassonne. 

Please feel FREE to use it as you see fit.  And you don't have to credit me at all.  I used your rule set to develop that summary :)

That's great, thanks! And I will still credit you, as it's essentially your work, and has saved me no end of time by being able to include it 8)

I didn't change much: added a couple of articles, removed some capitalisation. Apart from that, I added in some elements for the more recent expansions.

Happy to hear any criticisms / suggestions  :)

After a quick read of the new expansions, I am going to have do some "adjusting".  Shrines & Heretics, Cult & Siege, Catapult, Tunnel, "Bridges, Castles and Bazaars", Crop Circles, Plague, Party and Phantom are not covered in my summary.

What kind of time frame do I have to get this "up to date"?

I added a few things for most of those expansions to version of your summary in the CAR. Didn't add Shrines, Cult or Catapult... but I thought you had those in.

Anyway, my suggestion would either be to check my additions and let me know what changes you want made, or (which would take more time but might be rather interesting) to come up with your own set of additions, and only then compare them to what I added. But it's up to you.

As for a time frame, I'd like the CAR to be 'complete' to the point that when the Jubilee edition is released in March, I can buy it, scan the tiles, and put out the final version 5.0 almost immediately. So I'd say the 'up to date' timeframe is 'by the start of March'...

I found your updates about 2 minutes ago.  And I agree with your idea of me doing my additions and then comparing them to yours for final resolution.  That will give it some "vetting".

Cool 8) Looking forward to seeing what you come up with!

Agreed.




You may buy back an imprisoned follower at any time during your turn but you may only do it once.  Double tile placement still occurs during a single overall turn.

Step 7a is poorly worded.  Will be fixed to read "Collect trade good tokens".





The reason I moved the 3 point fairy scoring to Step 7 was due to this example in my head: A mayor on a castle that has no shield.  But you are correct it should be in Step 8 since a Mayor is still scored even though it is zero points.


And oh heck yes I need to review the heck out of this situation and see what the full implications are.  Good catch!

If this gets signed off on, I will move it to the first post.

I have reviewed everything I could find in the new rules and adjusted the turn summary to account for those rules.


Any time during your turn you may do the following:
   Ask for advice.
   Read the rules for the expansions you are playing with.
   Buy back one and only one imprisoned follower.
   Place one tunnel token on any currenlty unclaimed tunnel portal.
   If the Plague is in effect, you may move one and only one follower to any tile in the feature it is currently placed in.
   If the Plague is in effect, you must place a flea token.
   

Step 1:  Begin Turn
   Check for the eradication of an infestation.
   If the Fairy is next to one of your followers, score 1 point.

Step 2:  Draw a Tile
   a) If you have an Abbey tile you may draw it in place of drawing a regular tile.
   b) Show the tile to all players.
   c) If Wheel of Fate Icon is on the tile, resolve Wheel of Fate.

Step 3:  Place the Tile
   a) If Volcano Symbol is on the tile, place the Dragon on this tile and skip Step 4.
   b) If Princess Symbol is on the tile, and the tile is added to an existing castle with a knight on it,
      remove a knight of your choice and Skip Steps 4 and 5.
   c) If Bazaar Symbol is on the tile, resolve the Bazaar land auction.
   d) If the Plague Symbol is on the tile, resolve the start of an infestation.
   e) If the tile placed has a Road that creates an illegal placement but can be resolved by building a Bridge, build the bridge.

Step 4:  Move the Wood (Phase 1).  You may do one and only one of the following:
    Deploy a Follower.
    Deploy the Large Follower.
    Deploy the Mayor.
    Deploy the Wagon.

Step 5:  Move the Wood (Phase 2).  If you did nothing during Step 4, you may do one and only one of the following:
    Move the Fairy.
    Deploy the Pig.
    Deploy the Builder.
    Deploy the Barn.
    Place a Tower piece.
    Place a Follower on the Wheel of Fate.

Step 6:  Move the Wood (Phase 3).
    Deploy the Phantom.
    Build a Bridge if you did not do so during Step 3e.  If you deploy the bridge to the same tile where you placed a follower from Step 4, you may move that follower to the bridge.
    Remove a Follower, Large Follower, Mayor, Wagon, Pig, Builder, Barn if the tile played had the Party Symbol on it and you did not deploy in Steps 4 or 5.

Step 7:  Resolve Move the Wood.
   a) If Dragon symbol was on tile placed, move the Dragon.
   b) If Tower piece was placed, resolve possible capture of a follower. If two players have captured one of each other's followers,
      they are immediately exchanged.

Step 8:  Resolve all completed Features.
   a) Collect trade good tokens.
   b) If the completed feature is a castle and/or road, check to see if it is the new largest one and receive the King and/or Robber Baron.
   c) All players may move one or more Followers from the City of Carcassonne.
   d) You may convert a small city to a castle.  Skip Step 9 for the small city only.

Step 9:  Scoring.
   a) Resolve control of each completed feature, tally points for that completed feature and award points to controlling player.
   b) If Fairy is next to a follower, that is in a completed feature, that players owner receives 3 points.
   c) If a Hertic or a Monk completes their feature, check to see if a "race to completion" needs to be resolved.
   d) Move any Wagons on completed features to any adjoining unoccupied uncompleted feature.  
      If more than one wagon can move, current player moves first and then proceed clockwise.  
   e) If you did not score any points from any of the completed features you may place a follower in City of Carcassonne.
      Then you may move the Count to a quarter of your choice.

Step 10:  Resolve Turn
   a) Return all followers from completed features to their owner.
   b) If the Fete symbol was on tile placed, use Catapult.
   c) If a Crop Circle is on the tile placed, resolve it.
   d) If the Builder was already on part of the feature added to, repeat Steps 2 thru 9b once more and only once more.

Hopefully this should trip your "You need to read this thread" :)

I did not review your version until I was 100% done.  And I must say we agreed on almost everything new.  But I did inject a third phase to "Move the Wood" to account for some possible timing issues in the future.

I'd say that building a bridge needs to be before placing a meeple because you can place a follower on the bridge.

I forgot to word that properly, THANK YOU for pointing that failure out.

Excellent compilation. Things I noticed:

1)

... is wrong. In the rules (http://www.riograndegames.com/uploads/Game/Game_359_gameRules.pdf) on RGG's site, the player places the tile, places a follower, scores, or removes the tile from play if it is unplaceable. Then the bazaar happens.

I think that there's a line missing from some of the rules, so that's where you may have gotten the error.

2) I would suggest moving the Bridge option to just after placing the tile, since you need to place the bridge in order for the tile placement to be legal. It's not phrased that way in the rules, but it makes sense.

3 For this line: "d) You may convert a small city to a castle.  Skip Step 9," you may want to clarify by adding, "for the small city only," since other features may be completed, and thus scored.

4) For: "b) If Fairy is next to a follower, that players owner receives 3 points," clarify that the follower must be in a scoring feature.

Otherwise, looks awesome!


Edit: With this post, I am not a number! I am a Freeman!

Your first point is very valid and I will await Mr MJHarper's comment on the subject.

Point 2 creates a interesting programmers paradox based on your logical perception and how I thought I would code it.  I will dwell on this some more for sure.

Point 3: Agreed.  Thank you.

Point 4: Actually I need to word that as "must be in a completed feature".

I don't 100% like my solution to the Bridge building issue but it is programmable and does meet all conditions.

What if you leave 3e the way it is and remove the line about bridges in Step 6?

I think that also covers everything. You build a bridge if you can/want, then Step 4 allows you to place a follow, including on the just-placed bridge.

Mainly because the bridge can be built after you Deploy.  This is why game makers should have computer programmers on staff so we can yell at them for making a hard and fast rule like Step 3E and a soft rule "During his turn, a player can build one Bridge".

I completely withdraw my question.
I was thinking about this strictly from a Bridge standpoint, where that Bridge is going to have to go there regardless of when.

For some reason, it didn't occurred to me you would want to place a follower on the partial road, then connect it with a Bridge. It's very obvious now.

Keep doing what you're doing. This is a great document!

Looks good :) I'll switch the version in the CAR and give you full credit.

It is indeed in the RGG rules, and I added a remark about it in the CAR. I think it's an addition by RGG, rather than a line missing in the HiG rules (if you see what I mean). It's happened before ;)

Anyway, the question of exactly when a bazaar takes place has been included in the latest list of FAQ to be sent to HiG. My own view is that it should occur after scoring (as the RGG line states) because otherwise it would be a nightmare to remember who did what with which tiles. But a official clarification is necessary...

Can't see this in the turn summary, I might have missed it though:

Abbey and Mayor: What happens when a tile is placed that adjoins a field containing a farmer to another field containing a barn and at what point does scoring the 'thrown-out-of-the-field' farmers occur?

Edit: I say this because of a recent discussion on BGG. It depends on what the interpretation of the word 'immediately' should be in the rules.

I did not Specify an "immediate" scoring of the barn because I felt it is already properly covered by the remaining steps of the summary.  IE I treat the barn as a "completed feature" which allows for it and several other features to be completed at once under the normal game flow.  Upon reflection, with the current expansions already released, I believe this "programmers approach" still holds true.  But this could change radically with a new expansion.  Which means you have a very valid point.

If I was going to make a change to the summary, I would probably reword it as the following.

Step 5:  Move the Wood (Phase 2).  If you did nothing during Step 4, you may do one and only one of the following:
    Move the Fairy.
    Deploy the Pig.
    Deploy the Builder.
    Deploy the Barn. Resolve by treating the farm as a completed feature by doing steps 8c, 9a, 9b, 9c and 10a.
    Place a Tower piece.
    Place a Follower on the Wheel of Fate.



Hopefully mjharper will have an opinion on that possible addition.

The reason I mentioned this is because some rules lawyers interpret the word 'immediately' in the rules to mean that the turn ends (and is scored) as soon as someone connects a farm containing farmers to a farm containing a barn - therefore a player would not be permitted to any 'move the wood' action - while others maintain that a 'move the wood' action can indeed occur after the placement and this 'forced' immediate scoring - meaning that the 'forced'  scoring is completely separate to end of turn scoring.

HiG allows placement of a pig to a farm containing farmers to the tile that adjoins a farm with a barn, and what is clear is that a player may not play a farmer into a field that contains a barn. What is not clear is if a player could deploy a follower to a road on this adjoining (or any other unrelated feature to the barn farm) before this 'forced' scoring takes place.

If I am understanding your statement correctly:  Hooking the barn or placing it has nothing to do with ending a turn in any way, shape or form.

Those rules lawyers need to go back and re-read all the rules.  Completion of the features in regards to the tile placed, that made the connection possible, would be the first rule I would throw at them.  That alone proves that scoring doesn't end a turn. Heck a single tile could technically force the scoring of 2 roads, 7 cloisters and still allow the proper placing of the barn.  And that is using just the base game with the Abbey and the Mayor.  What if any of those features had Wagons on it?  There is all the movement involved with that as well. Are they not going to resolve those as well???


That would all depend on what expansions were in play.  But just using my example above with the Count added in and yes you could be in a position to move followers legally to those cloisters, roads and farm.

I'm not sure if you are missing what I'm saying here.

What I am trying to say is that the rules are not clear if your turn ends with 'forced' scoring after laying a tile that connects a farm with a barn to a farm containing a farmer at Step 3 (of your turn summary), meaning that Step 4, Step 5, Step 6, Step 7, Step 8 would be skipped. It is really a question for HiG to answer, which is why I've brought it up in that thread too. I can see that some problems would occur with this interpretation.

Your Turn Summary interprets the rules to allow 'move the wood' actions before 'forced' scoring occurs, but at present there are differing opinions on when that 'forced' scoring actually occurs and if it end a player's turn or not. If you read the rules pertaining to this situation you will see that both HiG and RGG agree that when placing a tile that connects a farm with a barn to a farm with a farmer, then the farm is scored immediately. What the question is, is what does word 'immediately' mean? Does it mean that 'forced' scoring is the same as normal turn scoring (meaning no more 'move the wood' actions are possible) or does it mean that players are still allowed to 'move the wood' before normal turn scoring or does it mean a second phase of scoring is now possible during a players turn? It is simply not clear.

It is the action of placing the tile that invokes the 'immediate' scoring problem. The rules do not say that after placing the tile (in this situation) that a player is allowed to 'move the wood' before this immediate scoring takes place. It simply says that when placing the tile, then immediate scoring is carried out. The rules make it sound as if it is an exception to the regular rules.

I can think of at least two items in Carcassonne, of the top of my head, that force scoring "immediately" prior to what your rule lawyers consider normal end of turn scoring and yet I doubt for one second they would ever say "that ends your turn right there".  They would be:

Princess.
Followers on the crown plinths (Wheel of Fate).

So ask them just about those two and explain why they both say "SCORE IMMEDIATELY" but they don't force you to end your turn.

Immediately, in this case, simply means during the scoring phase of that turn, as opposed to waiting until the end of the game as fields are normally scored.

There is no premature end to the player's turn. Normal placement is still allowed.

Ok, if we accept what's being said, if I place a tile that adjoins a barn farm with a farmer farm (and assume my follower is the farmer). The farmer is returned to me and scores for the farm. May I now deploy this returned follower to, say the cloister on the placed tile, as my 'move the wood' action?

If my 'move the wood' action occurs before the immediate 'forced' scoring, the farmers are not scored immediately, but after 'moving the wood'.

Oh yeah.  I would allow you to deploy it for sure if you played out the scoring as "immediately".  In fact Step 4 on would be fully in affect after you scored.

I would prefer to see the barn as making the farm a feature and that this new feature is checked for "completion and triggered scoring" any time a tile is placed in the barns area of coverage.  This would end a lot of questions as well as allow for new expansions that don't break the flow of the game.