The satan ...

[Tobias]

In OT Satan is God's handyman - not his enemy. It is on God's order that Satan (not his actual name - but I do not know what it is in english) destroys Job etc. Also be sure to actually read the texts: there is no devil in Genesis, but there is a snake.

[Scott]

I respectfully disagree.

[Novelty]

Oh boy... would it be possible to keep the off-topic theological chatter to the "Anything Else" forum or to PM please?

I'd much prefer a "red dress" expansion though

[Tobias]

Oh boy... would it be possible to keep the off-topic theological chatter to the "Anything Else" forum or to PM please?

I'd much prefer a "red dress" expansion though

Discussing theme is not off topic? To put a Devil in AotC is an anachronism, since the devil was not invented back then. But, it is a minor detail since people (want to) believe otherwise. One might however argue that the devil will work just fine in a religious theme (and I can fully agree with that )

Think of it as a discussion about steam boats and the River expansions.

[Joff]

Ok, the AotC is primarily aimed at religious folk. These people will disagree that there is no devil in the OT. Most definately Satan is mentioned in the OT, so to say he wasn't 'invented' back then is simply wrong. It is generally agreed that Job is the oldest book in the Bible (I mean when wrote, not record of history), and Satan is there, although he did not destroy Job at all, and he did not do his 'work' at God's command. Of course, you might mean back in the days of Moses/Joshua. Using the Bible, the religious folk (primarily playing AotC) will use the NT to cross reference the OT and come to the conclusion that the devil (Satan) is found in the time of Moses/Joshua (and in the Garden of Eden).
Anyway, all this aside, you are correct, the devil fits in just fine with AotC.

[Tobias]

Ok, the AotC is primarily aimed at religious folk. These people will disagree that there is no devil in the OT. Most definately Satan is mentioned in the OT, so to say he wasn't 'invented' back then is simply wrong. It is generally agreed that Job is the oldest book in the Bible (I mean when wrote, not record of history), and Satan is there, although he did not destroy Job at all, and he did not do his 'work' at God's command. Of course, you might mean back in the days of Moses/Joshua. Using the Bible, the religious folk (primarily playing AotC) will use the NT to cross reference the OT and come to the conclusion that the devil (Satan) is found in the time of Moses/Joshua (and in the Garden of Eden).
Anyway, all this aside, you are correct, the devil fits in just fine with AotC.

No, Job is considered to be from around 400 BC and is generally viewed to be a play. And - no, there is no "devil" (neither by name or as an opponent to God) in OT. I challange you to give me just *one* quote mentioning him

I am not doing this to be a jerk or anything, I just want to point out that one can view themes in different ways.

Though - religion usually is about good and evil (surprisingly) so even though I do not particualry view AotC as religiously themed, a devil would fit right in. But, okay - now I probably am OT ...

[meepleater]

Ok, the AotC is primarily aimed at religious folk. These people will disagree that there is no devil in the OT. Most definately Satan is mentioned in the OT, so to say he wasn't 'invented' back then is simply wrong. It is generally agreed that Job is the oldest book in the Bible (I mean when wrote, not record of history), and Satan is there, although he did not destroy Job at all, and he did not do his 'work' at God's command. Of course, you might mean back in the days of Moses/Joshua. Using the Bible, the religious folk (primarily playing AotC) will use the NT to cross reference the OT and come to the conclusion that the devil (Satan) is found in the time of Moses/Joshua (and in the Garden of Eden).
Anyway, all this aside, you are correct, the devil fits in just fine with AotC.

No, Job is considered to be from around 400 BC and is generally viewed to be a play. And - no, there is no "devil" (neither by name or as an opponent to God) in OT. I challange you to give me just *one* quote mentioning him

I am not doing this to be a jerk or anything, I just want to point out that one can view themes in different ways.

Though - religion usually is about good and evil (surprisingly) so even though I do not particualry view AotC as religiously themed, a devil would fit right in. But, okay - now I probably am OT ...

No, Job is considered to be from around 400 BC and is generally viewed to be a play. And - no, there is no "devil" (neither by name or as an opponent to God) in OT. I challange you to give me just *one* quote mentioning him

I am not doing this to be a jerk or anything, I just want to point out that one can view themes in different ways.

Though - religion usually is about good and evil (surprisingly) so even though I do not particualry view AotC as religiously themed, a devil would fit right in. But, okay - now I probably am OT ...
[/quote]

I found *one* quote:
"One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with him."
Job 1:6 NIV.
While this verse (and, in fact, 6-12) mentions the name Satan, it does not explicity mention that he is the devil, although doesn't the NT mention that Satan is the Devil? And even if he isn't exactly the devil that turns people away as is said in the NT, what's to stop him doing to the meeples what he did to Job?

[Tobias]

As I said, I can not really judge english translations. I do know that in Swedish translations the name (title, whatever) "Satan" or "devil" is not used in OT. The term that is used .. I could translate it into english but I do not really see the point. I do not know anything about what different verions of the bible exist in english either, but I am sure there are plenty.

Still - there exists no devil as adversary to God in OT. Handyman? Sure.

[meepleater]

As I said, I can not really judge english translations. I do know that in Swedish translations the name (title, whatever) "Satan" or "devil" is not used in OT. The term that is used .. I could translate it into english but I do not really see the point. I do not know anything about what different verions of the bible exist in english either, but I am sure there are plenty.

Still - there exists no devil as adversary to God in OT. Handyman? Sure.

And I suppose the 'snake' in Genesis was working for God?

Mind you, Genesis was't written as a textbook, it was written as some form of poetry(?) to explain the true creation of the world, and most things were probably metaphors...

[Tobias]

And I suppose the 'snake' in Genesis was working for God?

Mind you, Genesis was't written as a textbook, it was written as some form of poetry(?) to explain the true creation of the world, and most things were probably metaphors...

The snake is not the devil, but still takes a vital part of human history according to religious people.

"Genesis" and "true" are not two words I would put in the same sentence without a negation. But, yeah, metaphores - no doubt.

[meepleater]

And I suppose the 'snake' in Genesis was working for God?

Mind you, Genesis was't written as a textbook, it was written as some form of poetry(?) to explain the true creation of the world, and most things were probably metaphors...

The snake is not the devil, but still takes a vital part of human history according to religious people.

"Genesis" and "true" are not two words I would put in the same sentence without a negation. But, yeah, metaphores - no doubt.

What makes you say the snake isn't the devil?

Two evil powers?

[Scott]

As a religious person, I am offended by certain remarks in here which I believe to be false. I don't think it is appropriate to get into this discussion, but I feel obligated to state my position lest I be held accountable for doing nothing.

Satan is the Devil, and he took the form of a snake in Genesis chapter 3 to trick the human race into sinning against God. This is well-accepted by millions of people around the world. To deny that Genesis is narrative is to deny the authenticity of the entire Bible. It's not metaphorical. If there are some aspects which you find difficult to believe, that's why it's called faith. If there was indisputable proof, there could not be faith. Some things must remain unexplained.

If you actually read the first two chapters of Job, you will see that although God initiates the discussion about Job, it was Satan's idea to ruin Job's life. Also notice that God does not tell Satan to ruin Job's life, but gives him permission. However, Satan is still limited by God in that he may not kill Job.

I don't expect to convince everyone, or even anyone. I wish to discourage people from making remarks about things which they do not understand. I recommend that further discussion in this thread be restricted to the mechanics of the AotC expansion and that all biblical debate end right now.

[Novelty]

Maybe Gantry is correct... there should be some place to discuss things out of public view...

I was taught at a young age to avoid three areas of conversion in polite company:
1. Sex
2. Politics
3. Religion

I think these are even more valid on an internet forum, where misunderstandings and bad feelings can easily arise.

[Tobias]

As a religious person, I am offended by certain remarks in here which I believe to be false. I don't think it is appropriate to get into this discussion, but I feel obligated to state my position lest I be held accountable for doing nothing.

Satan is the Devil, and he took the form of a snake in Genesis chapter 3 to trick the human race into sinning against God. This is well-accepted by millions of people around the world. To deny that Genesis is narrative is to deny the authenticity of the entire Bible. It's not metaphorical. If there are some aspects which you find difficult to believe, that's why it's called faith. If there was indisputable proof, there could not be faith. Some things must remain unexplained.

If you actually read the first two chapters of Job, you will see that although God initiates the discussion about Job, it was Satan's idea to ruin Job's life. Also notice that God does not tell Satan to ruin Job's life, but gives him permission. However, Satan is still limited by God in that he may not kill Job.

I don't expect to convince everyone, or even anyone. I wish to discourage people from making remarks about things which they do not understand. I recommend that further discussion in this thread be restricted to the mechanics of the AotC expansion and that all biblical debate end right now.

I have read the bible quite a lot. I mean - a lot. There is no devil in Genesis, but there is a snake. It is on God's order that Satan (or whatever name he carries) destorys Job's life, it's not even satan that brings Job up. It is all God's work. If you read books about it (for example God - A biography by Jack Miles) it might become clear.

As I said - I am not trying to be a jerk, and feel free to believe whatever. But placing a devil in OT is like placing steam boats on River I, ask any (unbiased) teacher in literature at any (unbiased) university.

The bible is (whether or not you believe in something) a piece of text, and can thus be read. If something is written or not in the text can also be read. The rest is interpretation. You choose to interpret it as if the snake is the devil - but you can not read it anywhere. If you are offended by that - by simply stating the facts; well, that is also up to you. I would never get offended by someone who gave me knowledge.

You could start by reading the article about Satan on Wikipedia. Even though I do not agree with it fully, it is still a rather good compilation. You should note what judaism says about Satan, since, well, it is judaism we are talking about (no christians in OT). Satan (as God's opponent) and hell (as the buring inferno we know it) was invented by the catholic church in order to sell indulgence.  Well, maybe not invented, but made into pop culture.

[Tobias]

I split off the religious discussion from the play idea (no need to let a good idea dissapear in something else), and moved that one back. Even though it is a discussion about theme - it did drag on in more length then I anticipated and intended.

Let this discourse run on if it wants to.

/mod