Expansion 2009

[Joff]

The problem with T&B is not that it is fundamentally broken. It still works perfectly well if it's only combined with a couple of expansion. Instead, the more expansions you add, the less value it has. So the problem isn't really something that has to be changed in the original expansion itself.

This is a similar with P&D. The Dragon rarely gets near any activity on the board the more expansions are used. This is what Dual Dragon attempts to address. I agree with you that T&B suffers from the same problem (as does The Tower in a small way).

Edit: typos

[mjharper]

And perhaps we should write to HiG?

If by "we" you mean you, then I'm all for it

Need to expand on the idea a bit first. . I'll have a think.

What you are hoping for seems not to be another expansion, but another GQ11... I was hoping that the HiG Almanac would have included that but oh well, it was not to be.

To be honest, I never expected the GQ11 to be that. I'd hoped it would just be some interesting new tiles.

Maybe it isn't an expansion as such, but more like an overview of everything to date. But after The Catapult, I'd certainly rather have more of what works than some lame attempt to push the game into a 'new' direction.

[mjharper]

The problem with T&B is not that it is fundamentally broken. It still works perfectly well if it's only combined with a couple of expansion. Instead, the more expansions you add, the less value it has. So the problem isn't really something that has to be changed in the original expansion itself.

This is a similar with P&D. The Dragon rarely gets near any activity on the board the more expansions are used. This is what Dual Dragon attempts to address. I agree with you that T&B suffers from the same problem (as does The Tower in a small way).

Edit: typos

Some of these things would be addressed by just including more tiles. I mean, until the recent explosion of shrine tiles, cloisters (etc.) were decidedly under-represented in comparison to cities and roads. I think they probably still aren't worth the commitment—9 points for the effort of completing a cloister/shrine isn't much—but at least there are now more of them, encouraging people to actually use them.

More dragon tiles, volcanoes and tower foundations would help considerably. Although it wouldn't necessarily solve the problem...

[Novelty]

But after The Catapult, I'd certainly rather have more of what works than some lame attempt to push the game into a 'new' direction.

Oh, that I definately agree with!

There's still a whole world of ideas of what could be done - witness the expansions here and elsewhere.  I'm just surprised that the Catapult failed so miserably.

[mjharper]

But after The Catapult, I'd certainly rather have more of what works than some lame attempt to push the game into a 'new' direction.

Oh, that I definately agree with!

There's still a whole world of ideas of what could be done - witness the expansions here and elsewhere.  I'm just surprised that the Catapult failed so miserably.

I know that I just think that, after such a failure, it might be a good time to take stock of the situation.

[Novelty]

But after The Catapult, I'd certainly rather have more of what works than some lame attempt to push the game into a 'new' direction.

Oh, that I definately agree with!
There's still a whole world of ideas of what could be done - witness the expansions here and elsewhere.  I'm just surprised that the Catapult failed so miserably.

I know that I just think that, after such a failure, it might be a good time to take stock of the situation.

Well, I think HiG's next expansion better be something spectacular, or else it would probably be the last expansion they make.  Witness that after P&D, they had Tower and A&M, both were a whole lot better than P&D.

[Tobias]

Well, I think HiG's next expansion better be something spectacular, or else it would probably be the last expansion they make.  Witness that after P&D, they had Tower and A&M, both were a whole lot better than P&D.

All three of those were also rather competitive. The Catapult is only childish and boring. I have said it before but I hope enough is enough. I do want them to follow mjharper's words and do an expansion for expansions - but companies almost never do that, so I am pretty sure that will not happen.

[koolkat]

mjharper, but that would be a totally new expansion and surely not T&B II. And one thing that makes this game pretty awesome is that when we join expansions, we should not care about each one specifically but we'd rather think as ONE game for itself, if you get what I mean. Well... that's how I feel and I do mix a lot of expansions... Besides parts II and subsequent parts usually don't make as much success as the first one. Like on everything else. You know, because there's nothing new (besides the new tiles that you say that T&B II should include...).
But I do agree with you when you say that there should be a Carc Anthology with all that stuff you say...
Actually Carcassonne will remain a classic tile-laying game for ever and ever...

[Deatheux]

ok why not, for the instance, just hoping for an almalgam of previous expansions of Carc(except the catapult of course).

[kjamma4]

@kjamma4: The problem with your scoring solution is that there are still only a fixed number of points and tiles.

Well, of course there is always an upper limit on the number of points you can earn. However, now there is at least some variation in the amount of points the Traders could earn. It would be some number from 10 to 10 + the number of counters for that specific good.

Giving an extra point per city would a) mean that some goods were more valuable than others, which the expansion stove to avoid; and .

Huh? As it stands now, the goods are not all valued the same. Since there are only five cloth goods, you only need three to guarantee that you will get the 10 points. You need four grain (and really only three to guarantee that the worst you'll do is get 10 points and someone else will also get 10) and five wine to say the same. Clearly not all goods are created equal.

b) having a majority in, say, cloth would still score the same number of points regardless of how many other expansions you use. And that's precisely what I think needs to be changed.

Again, there is an upper limit. However, by having more expansions, it should be the case that you are able to complete cities with trade goods without duplicating that specific good. This would make it easier to get to that "upper limit". Additionally, harder it is to "corner the market on" the good, the more potential points that good could be worth.

It may not solve the "problem" as you see it, but it certainly is closer than the present rules.

[Novelty]

I would want the anthology to have three components:

• New tile configurations

Could you give some suggestions as to what type of configurations you would like to see?  Rivers?  Icons? Shields/Pennants?

[mjharper]

@kjamma4: The problem with your scoring solution is that there are still only a fixed number of points and tiles.

Well, of course there is always an upper limit on the number of points you can earn. However, now there is at least some variation in the amount of points the Traders could earn. It would be some number from 10 to 10 + the number of counters for that specific good.

That's not quite what I meant. With the King, for example, you score more points relative to the overall number of tiles you play with. The more expansions, the more points. But if there are only five tiles of a particular trade good, and you score for each one, then the score still doesn't 'grow' as you add more tiles into the mix. The tricky thing with improving T&B is combining a fixed number of tiles with a relative score.

Giving an extra point per city would a) mean that some goods were more valuable than others, which the expansion stove to avoid; and .

Huh? As it stands now, the goods are not all valued the same. Since there are only five cloth goods, you only need three to guarantee that you will get the 10 points. You need four grain (and really only three to guarantee that the worst you'll do is get 10 points and someone else will also get 10) and five wine to say the same. Clearly not all goods are created equal.

They're not created equally, but they are scored equally 

b) having a majority in, say, cloth would still score the same number of points regardless of how many other expansions you use. And that's precisely what I think needs to be changed.

Again, there is an upper limit. However, by having more expansions, it should be the case that you are able to complete cities with trade goods without duplicating that specific good. This would make it easier to get to that "upper limit". Additionally, harder it is to "corner the market on" the good, the more potential points that good could be worth.

That may be the case…

It may not solve the "problem" as you see it, but it certainly is closer than the present rules.

A trial game may be in order

[mjharper]

I would want the anthology to have three components:

• New tile configurations

Could you give some suggestions as to what type of configurations you would like to see?  Rivers?  Icons? Shields/Pennants?

I mean new layouts more than anything. Dead-ends, that sort of thing. Basically, someone should go through all the tile configurations looking for new or rare arrangements...

[Novelty]

Basically, someone should go through all the tile configurations looking for new or rare arrangements...

That someone sounds like mathguy

Deadends:


Rare arrangements:


New arrangements:


You can see the rest of the tiles here.  The second set of 12 is still being developed (my apologies for the delay).

[skipboris]

a mechanic to pick-up tiles is still missing...