The Jester and the Minstrel

[Novelty]

OK, I can understand the bonus part (because they bring joy), but why the penalty?  Storywise, (or thematically) why would one of them give a penalty?

Why would either one of them affect monks who have renounced stuff, but not affect farmers, who as peasants are?

My suggestions:
Both of them should really give a bonus to knights and thieves and farmers (when the barn is placed, but only if playing with A&M).  One of them should give an additional +1 to knights (total +2 bonus) and the other a +1 to thieves (total +2) and maybe farmers.

If that is being followed, then I think there should be a "cap" or "ceiling".  The maximum bonus should be +2 to one player from either or both of these when scoring.  So even if 1 player has 3 knights in the vicinity of one of these when a city is completed, those knights only have a +2 total.

If only the base set + Catapult is used, then only use the one with the +2 for thieves.  The +2 for knights should only be used if there are at least 3 of the other big expansions and Tower.

Of course, everything in the above needs to be tweaked.

Either way, we need footnotes for their effects on Forests and Fishermen

[Joff]

I do not understand why everything needs to be 'historically' accurate!

I see it that the Jester plays pranks on the unsuspecting, but the Minstrel provides song and pleasure. Whether that is accurate or not, I don't believe it matters.

I do not question, thematically, why roads would be built in circles, cities are built with no roads leading from them, or with roads that connect back to them. They do not fit in storywise at all. Why would a thief be on a closed road?

[Novelty]

Not everything have to be historically accurate, but you have to admit that Carcassonne has a certain theme and the expansions have more or less followed that theme.  If we don't adhere to that theme, can you imagine the ideas that will be brought forward?  The Nuclear Power Stations of Carcassonne?  Carcassonne: TGV?  Airports of Carcassonne?  (Actually some of those might be rather good as spin offs.  I'd like to have Carcassonne: the Space Race as a spin-off please)

Why would the jester play pranks on the unsuspecting?  That's the role traditionally played by the rogue.  We might as well call this Rogue and Minstrel if that's the case.  It would be sad though because the original expansion idea was about Jesters!

Anyways, I'm not the guy making the decisions on this expansion/variant/custom so those are just my suggestions.

[Scott]

We just thought it would be interesting if the two were opposites of each other. I'm open to changing this if a better idea is presented.

[Novelty]

I'm just saying that they both should logically give a bonus flavour-wise.  A cutpurse or rogue or pickpocket or something like that would be the meeple to confer a penalty flavour-wise.  But that's just my opinion.

[Joff]

Not everything have to be historically accurate, but you have to admit that Carcassonne has a certain theme and the expansions have more or less followed that theme.  If we don't adhere to that theme, can you imagine the ideas that will be brought forward?  The Nuclear Power Stations of Carcassonne?  Carcassonne: TGV?  Airports of Carcassonne?  (Actually some of those might be rather good as spin offs.  I'd like to have Carcassonne: the Space Race as a spin-off please)

Just out of interest, I think that the Jester and Minstrel idea does not deviate from the theme any more than P&D deviates. I mean, magic portals? A Princess that seduces Wagons? A Fairy?

For the record, I don't actually mind the Dragon part as I do think they have an actual place in history!

Having said that, and this is serious, I had an idea for a spin-off game based on Noah's Ark. Working title: 'Noah's Carc' (contact me via PM if you have any ideas that would fit this theme).

Back to the topic in hand, I still prefer the opposite effect of these two pieces, one a bonus, the other a penalty. Perhaps a name change will solve the problem? The Minstrel and the Pickpocket, The Jester and the Pickpocket, Minstrels and Rogues, Minstrels and Pickpockets, Travelling Minstrels and Wandering Pickpockets? Pickpockets operate at fairs where there are plenty of people.

I prefer the idea of not imposing the penalty/bonus upon Farmers however.

[Novelty]

The Jester and the Cutpurse might be an interesting name, but yes, changing the name of the pieces and the expansion would go a long way to making the "story" more comprehensible storywise

So, when are you guys getting this finalised?

[Joff]

I will start rules compilation later today, if that's ok with you, Scott, with a view to getting some draft rules by tomorrow morning (of course, that's UK time )

[Joff]

These problems still remain:

1. How do you bring the Jester/Cutpurse onto the board in the first place? (i'm assuming that this expansion/variant will only require 'The Catapult' (and 2 pieces, perhaps even 2 of the catapult counters) and no extra tiles)

2. Can the Jester/Cutpurse wander into each others attention capturing vacinity, and if so, what happens to followers caught by both the Jester and the Cutpurse?

The 2nd question needs answering first as it directly impacts the 1st. Are you allowed to bring the pieces onto the board at the same time and to the same tile?

Perhaps both Jester and Cutpurse can begin on the starting tile (whatever it may be)? A Jester or Cutpurse only operate when a fair comes to town. The placing of the first fair tile not only triggers their movement, but begins the 'attention' capturing range of both pieces. This of course would mean that they can share a tile, which would need a sensible solution to question 2.
The Cutpurse capturing range cannot be called his 'attention' capuring range either, since he would not want a followers attention to be captured. Or perhaps he captures their attention by misdirection

[Scott]

I will start rules compilation later today, if that's ok with you, Scott, with a view to getting some draft rules by tomorrow morning (of course, that's UK time )

Yeah sure go ahead.

IMHO, Cutpurse is a terrible replacement name. I can't say that I even want or feel the need for a replacement name. The game already has thieves on the road. I wanted to add new types of people, not variations on the existing ones. If jesters giving a penalty is a problem, I'd rather change the mechanics than get rid of the minstrels which is what made me post this thread in the first place.

[Joff]

If I am honest, although I like the name Cutpurse, I think Scott is correct. I prefer the title The Jester and the Minstrel.

Anyway, here are some draft rules (with the terms Jesters and Cutpurse included, although these are easily changed back). The rules are essentially the same (except for the names) but the Jester gives a penalty and the Minstrel the bonus. Be warned, they are very, very rough draft rules and need much work.

Very draft rules

[Scott]

I think something needs to be added that the City of Carcassonne cannot be entered when playing with the Count expansion.

[Joff]

A problem I do have... and it reverts back to the two questions posed earlier;

These problems still remain:

1. How do you bring the Jester/Cutpurse onto the board in the first place? (i'm assuming that this expansion/variant will only require 'The Catapult' (and 2 pieces, perhaps even 2 of the catapult counters) and no extra tiles)

2. Can the Jester/Cutpurse wander into each others attention capturing vacinity, and if so, what happens to followers caught by both the Jester and the Cutpurse?

The 2nd question needs answering first as it directly impacts the 1st. Are you allowed to bring the pieces onto the board at the same time and to the same tile?

Perhaps both Jester and Cutpurse can begin on the starting tile (whatever it may be)? A Jester or Cutpurse only operate when a fair comes to town. The placing of the first fair tile not only triggers their movement, but begins the 'attention' capturing range of both pieces. This of course would mean that they can share a tile, which would need a sensible solution to question 2.
The Cutpurse capturing range cannot be called his 'attention' capuring range either, since he would not want a followers attention to be captured. Or perhaps he captures their attention by misdirection

I have an example showing the basic starting tile with both pieces on it. This causes both to be within each others capture area. How can I word the rules that will enable us to split the two apart right from the beginning? Perhaps one of the pieces should be placed when there are at least 3 tiles seperating them?

[Joff]

0.2 very draft rules

Do you think we should allow the Jester and Minstrel to overlap each others capture area (there is no bonus or penalty imposed on followers captured in both areas)? Pehaps not allow the Jester and Minstrel to share a tile?

Or perhaps rules worded something like this:

"Except at the start of the game (on the staring tile) the Jester and Minstrel cannot share the same tile."

"Except at the start of the game (on the staring tile) the Jester and Minstrel cannot share the same tile, unless that tile is a fair tile."

"Followers that are caught in both the Jesters attention capturing range and the Minstrels attention capturing range do not have either a penalty or a bonus imposed on them."

[Novelty]

How about when the Jester and Minstrel come within a tile of each other, they are removed from the board