Rule Clarifications (Princess & Dragon, and Tower expansions)

[Jason]

I already sent an email through to Matthew, but I figured it would be worth asking here. I haven't been able to find satisfactory answers to the following questions:

1. What figures does the dragon eat/destroy and which does he leave unharmed? I am particularly interested in knowing whether it destroys towers, and if so, do the tower pieces get returned to the person who played them?

Possible figures: follower, big follower, mayor, wagon, pig, builder, barn, tower. It has already been made clear that the count and fairy cannot be eaten.

2a. Similarly, what figures can and cannot be captured by the tower?

Possible figures: follower, big follower, mayor, wagon, pig, builder, barn. It seems clear that the tower, fairy, dragon, and count cannot be captured as they are neither followers nor do they really belong to any specific player, though the tower and fairy could be argued as belonging to another player, if only temporarily.

2b. If the mayor, wagon, pig, builder and/or barn can be captured, would they need to be exchanged for the same figure or would a follower/big follower be considered equivalent for the purposes of exchanging prisoners?

3. When a princess tile is played, the original rules state that a knight MUST be removed from the city. Does this mean that the player placing the tile on he city he has claimed must remove his own knight if it is the only one in the city? (even under the German big box rules where it is optional to remove a knight, can the player remove his own knight?)

Thanks for thoughts!

[wicke]

1. The dragon eats almost everything except the barn and the tower. But it does eat followers on top of the tower. Followers inside the city of Carcassonne are also safe from the dragon.

2a. The tower captures all followers, but not the barn.

2b. All game figures are considered equivalent for the purposes of exchanging prisoners

3. Even the official rules now state that a knight MAY be removed from the city. So surely the player may or may not remove his own knight as well, if he needs to get it back to his play area.

[mjharper]

I already sent an email through to Matthew, but I figured it would be worth asking here.

Hey, I was just about to answer I'll do it here instead.

I haven't been able to find satisfactory answers to the following questions:

1. What figures does the dragon eat/destroy and which does he leave unharmed? I am particularly interested in knowing whether it destroys towers, and if so, do the tower pieces get returned to the person who played them?

Possible figures: follower, big follower, mayor, wagon, pig, builder, barn, tower. It has already been made clear that the count and fairy cannot be eaten.

Tower's aren't destroyed, but followers on top of them can be eaten. The FAQ linked to is in the incorporated FAQ section, which I'm starting to realise could be better organised. The mayor and wagon can also be eaten. Barns can't be eaten/destroyed—that's in the rules themselves. Builders and pigs can be eaten, and must also be removed when the last associated flower is removed (i.e. eaten).

2a. Similarly, what figures can and cannot be captured by the tower?

Possible figures: follower, big follower, mayor, wagon, pig, builder, barn. It seems clear that the tower, fairy, dragon, and count cannot be captured as they are neither followers nor do they really belong to any specific player, though the tower and fairy could be argued as belonging to another player, if only temporarily.

Towers, the fairy, the dragon and the count can't be captured. Builders and pigs are special followers, and can't be captured by a tower, although they can't remain in play independently. [wicke is wrong there] As I linked to above, mayors and wagons can be captured by towers, seduced by princesses, and eaten by the dragon.

2b. If the mayor, wagon, pig, builder and/or barn can be captured, would they need to be exchanged for the same figure or would a follower/big follower be considered equivalent for the purposes of exchanging prisoners?

No. See here—the big follower is ransomed for the same price as a normal follower. And a clarification in the Big Box rules (I should probably incorporate these clarifications into the FAQ) states that if several followers have been captured by player A when player B captures on of A's followers, player B may decided which follower to exchange. In other words, I can capture a normal follower and exchange it for a mayor or big follower.

3. When a princess tile is played, the original rules state that a knight MUST be removed from the city. Does this mean that the player placing the tile on he city he has claimed must remove his own knight if it is the only one in the city? (even under the German big box rules where it is optional to remove a knight, can the player remove his own knight?)

Yes. You can/must remove your own followers with a princess.

Thanks for thoughts!

No problem. Hope I answered everything!

[wicke]

Question 3: When a princess tile is played, the original rules state that a knight MUST be removed from the city, can the player remove his own knight?
Answer from Matt: Yes. You can/must remove your own followers with a princess.

Please Matt, in your own CAR you point out MAY in bold.
By the way, have you looked through the document I sent to you ?
.../Wicke

[mjharper]

Question 3: When a princess tile is played, the original rules state that a knight MUST be removed from the city, can the player remove his own knight?
Answer from Matt: Yes. You can/must remove your own followers with a princess.

Please Matt, in your own CAR you point out MAY in bold.

I know. But the question was about the original rules, which do state that they must be removed. And whether you go with the original rules (must) or the latest (may) you can still remove your own follower. Maybe I should have tried to be clearer…

By the way, have you looked through the document I sent to you ?
.../Wicke

I'm really sorry, I haven't yet. I will; there's no question of that. But until the end of September I have absolutely no time. I'm extremely grateful for your efforts here—and those of everyone else—but for the moment the CAR are on hold. If I do find a little space when I'm not working or just clearing my head, it'll be the first thing I look at.

[Deatheux]

@MJH: the may/must thing and some others "cross wording" looks to be a traduction issue... is it that confusing to translate german to english... in my opoint of view, when we translate english to french, it loos to not being so, confusing, just wondering...

[Jason]

@MJH: the may/must thing and some others "cross wording" looks to be a traduction issue... is it that confusing to translate german to english... in my opoint of view, when we translate english to french, it loos to not being so, confusing, just wondering...

According to Matt's summary on page 47 of the CAR, all rules except for the German Big Box state 'must,' so I don't think it's a translation issue if the original German had must.

Answer to my questions...

Thanks Matt, that clears things up!

[mjharper]

@Deatheux: As Jason said, it isn't a translation issue. If you want I can check the German, but it really is 'must' & 'may'. I think the change is precisely because of the kind of issue that Jason brought up: under the old rules, you must remove a follower, even if it's yours—which can be a big penalty. 'May' makes the princess a positive tile no matter what.

@Jason: Glad it helped!

[felippe]

Hi Matt.

Welcome everybody (i am new here).

In polish instruction was written that builder and the pig stay on a board even if associated follower was eaten/captured. It isn't true?

And second question - Can the follower from the top of the tower be captured from other tower?

[Novelty]

Czesc Felippe.

The builder and the pig are no longer considered as "followers" I think, but they are associated with the followers.  So when the all followers in the feature get removed (P&D, Tower), the pig or the builder is also removed (If I have 3 knights and a builder in a city, and only one knight is removed, my builder doesn't get removed because there are 2 more knights in the city).  See footnote 134 in the latest CAR.

2. Yes, a follower from the top of the tower can be captured by another tower (or by the Dragon).  Footnote 132 says something about it, but it's not very clear.

I hope that helps.

[felippe]

thanks a lot

[Novelty]

Well, please do download the latest Completely Annotated Rules (CAR) and have a look.  It answers a lot of the question.  You can get the CAR from the link above or from http://mjharper.macbay.de/CARnew.pdf

[koolkat]

I completely disagree with the rule change that changes PRINCESS MUST REMOVE A FOLLOWER to PRINCESS MAY REMOVE A FOLLOWER. We're gonna miss all the fun of having to remove our own follower.

[Scott]

If you want to remove your own follower, you're welcome to do so. If you're trying to force your opponents to remove their own meeples, maybe you can get them to agree to a house rule.

[Joff]

After playing P&D for the first time today:

The P&D rules state that the player who plays the volcano tile "must immediately move the dragon to this tile from its current location. The player may not deploy a follower to the tile, but may - according to the usual rules - deploy a builder or a pig, or move the fairy".

Can a player also play a Tower piece?