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Author Topic: Completely Annotated Rules - work in progress!  (Read 381433 times)
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McJazz
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« Reply #405 on: February 08, 2011, 03:44:17 pm »

p. 77, second paragraph, second sentence:

Should read, "Anyone who has already received a tile may not longer take part in the bidding. "
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« Reply #406 on: February 08, 2011, 04:33:16 pm »

After McJazz made the comment: "Lastly, the Princess can be used to remove a follower (large, small, whatever) from a city. I don't see why Crop Circles would be any different." on the Crop Circles Rules thread, I'm suddenly inclined to agree with him. Regardless of HiG's original intent, they rarely consider previous expansions in their rules and I agree that Crop Circles should regard any follower. Does anyone else agree?
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« Reply #407 on: February 08, 2011, 04:56:36 pm »

p. 84, second paragraph, "A follower on an affected tile is removed without score."

I apologize if this was already noted.
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mjharper
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« Reply #408 on: February 08, 2011, 06:19:56 pm »

Wow! Just realized I am a moderator. Weird. I heard it was being discussed. Didn't realize it was a reality.
Cool

The Tunnel (pgs. 74-75):
• p.74 – "untagged": Despite your explanation, I still don't like the term. "Tagging" in the US refers often to graffiti and that is the first thing that came to my mind. Perhaps "unclaimed" would be better?
Done. 'Claim' is much better.

• p.74 – "tunnel entrance". Not sure if it matters, but train tunnels are called "portals", though this may cause confusion with "magic portals".
I think that's better as well. I was always a little uneasy with entrances, because you have two separate entrances which become and entrance and an exit when linked. 'Portal' avoids that, so unless there are any major complaints it can stay. I did leave a couple of references to entrances and exits, but put them in quotation marks. As for magic portals, I could happily change that to magic gate to avoid confusion Wink

• p.74n198 – "it clearly clarifies that...". A bit redundant.
D'oh. Deleted 'clearly'.

• p.74 – The in-text footnote for 199 is in the same style as the header, but I feel it should probably be more in style with the regular text. Right now, it seems a little overlarge and detailed.
Agreed. I can't change the font format of the footnote without changing the format of the header. So I moved the footnote to the end of the first sentence.

The Plague (pgs. 84-88):
• p.84 – "the plague is spreading" should probably read "the plague spreads".
Okay. I feel it worked fine the other way... But changed to 'the plague spreads throughout' to keep it a little more active.

• p.84 – " A follower on a affected tile is removed without score". Should read "scoring".
• p.84 – "It is never part of a epidemic". Should read "an".
Done.

• p.85 – "Prepare the tokens." What does this mean?
Indeed. That really is all the rules say. A clear example of The Plague not being authored by HiG. What it means, I assume, is that the infestation and flea tokens should be placed to one side, where they can be used as neutral tokens by all players. I'd prefer not to write that in the text (strays too far from being a translation). Could add a footnote though...

• p.85 – Taking flight from the plague – Is a flea or outbreak required to be in a follower's feature for the follower to flee? Or can a follower anywhere on the board flee if they feel like it? This could have massive reprucussions for play with The Dragon and The Tower, since you could hypothetically flee from peripheral towers or from a rampaging dragon.
There is no mention of this in the text. Personally, I think any follower anywhere on the board may take flight. Once the plague hits, everyone is in a panic. We'll have to wait for an official ruling, but I've added a footnote that it's unclear.

• p.85n209 – "first 18 tiles placements of the game." Should read "tile".
Done.

• p.86 – "(instead the privilege of largely choosing where the infestation will occur)". Sounds awkward.
There was meant to be a 'having' in there. Deleted brackets and 'largely', so now reads, "turn, having instead the privilege of choosing where the infestation will occur." Better?

• p.87 – "Just take the six tiles with that come with the set as an example:".
• p.87 – "which makes should make it clear"
Done.

I looked up to see if "infestation" is a word that could be used to describe the Bubonic Plague and, sure enough, it is. Apparently the plague is a bacteria—I always thought it was a virus—and bacteria infest. Rats and fleas infest too. So we're good with your terminology. Awesome translation overall, by the way. Maybe Jay can hire you as the official rules translator at Rio Grande.
Glad 'infestation' works, and you're happy with the translation. Jay's not going to hire me, btw. I upset him once Embarrassed

The Party (pg. 89):
• "deploy one figure" and "return one figure". So does this mean you can also do these actions with pig, builder, and barn, or should this read "follower"?
The rules do actually say 'figure', and that is the only time in the text that the word is used—everywhere else it's 'follower'. I take that to mean all normal and special followers are affected, but obviously not neutrals. Footnote added.

• "or" was originally bold. Was this intentionally decapitalized?
Yes. I see no reason for it to be capital, and I'm not a fan of shouting. But I should check through the rest of the text to see how I've treated such cases elsewhere. Thanks for pointing it out.

The Phantom (pg. 90):
• "After placing a tile, the player may deploy the phantom to the it as a second follower." This doesn't make sense.
deleted 'the'

• "As such, in this turn the player may deploy two followers to two different segments." Shouldn't this read "features"?
You're right. My bad. I'm sure there's the same issue in the rules for Crop Circles.

That's it for now. I will read through BC&B (CB&B?) later when I have more time.
Brilliant. Thanks Smiley  Smiley I can see that CB&B is going to cause problems, so maybe I should change it back...

p. 77, second paragraph, second sentence:

Should read, "Anyone who has already received a tile may not longer take part in the bidding. "

p. 84, second paragraph, "A follower on an affected tile is removed without score."

I apologize if this was already noted.
Done and done. Thanks Smiley

After McJazz made the comment: "Lastly, the Princess can be used to remove a follower (large, small, whatever) from a city. I don't see why Crop Circles would be any different." on the Crop Circles Rules thread, I'm suddenly inclined to agree with him. Regardless of HiG's original intent, they rarely consider previous expansions in their rules and I agree that Crop Circles should regard any follower. Does anyone else agree?
It would still only apply to normal followers and not special figures, I assume. Could add a footnote... will wait for more comments.

So, I've uploaded a version with these corrections. In the footer it still says v5.0b8, but in the version history I've mentioned v5.0b9.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 06:22:03 pm by mjharper » Logged

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CKorfmann
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« Reply #409 on: February 08, 2011, 08:45:07 pm »

After McJazz made the comment: "Lastly, the Princess can be used to remove a follower (large, small, whatever) from a city. I don't see why Crop Circles would be any different." on the Crop Circles Rules thread, I'm suddenly inclined to agree with him. Regardless of HiG's original intent, they rarely consider previous expansions in their rules and I agree that Crop Circles should regard any follower. Does anyone else agree?
I agree, any follower.  It stands to reason then that the same should be true for deployment.  

Edit: Actually, now that I think more about it...
From the Crop Circles Rules thread:
The way I read it is the pitchfork effects farmers, the club thieves, and the shield knights.  The wording makes the difference.  A mayor is always a mayor, never a knight.  If you are to remove and/or deploy a knight, than the mayor should not count.  I suppose it could be argued that the cart is eligible because it is essentially the same as any other regular follower, it just looks different and has a movement bonus.  It might be easier to understand if we had a meeple on rollerskates rather than a cart, but the cart looks cool.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 08:57:05 pm by CKorfmann » Logged

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« Reply #410 on: February 09, 2011, 02:13:07 am »

All the expansions add so many complications, don't they? So if we follow the logic of the Crop Circles rules, then:

  • Follower = Follower (obviously)
  • Phantom = Follower
  • Big Follower = Follower
  • Trader ≠ Follower
  • Pig ≠ Follower
  • Mayor = Follower, but ≠ Knight
  • Wagon = Follower, but ≠ Farmer
  • Barn ≠ Follower

That is confusing and annoying. But I can't see any possible way the Crop Circles rules CAN'T effect the Big Follower or the Wagon since they are really just basic followers with extra abilities. That being said, so is the Mayor. And while the Mayor may ≠ a Knight, for all intent and purposes it does = a Knight. I'm inclined to still accept the Mayor as a Knight for the simple principle that otherwise the rules may spontaneously implode on itself.

Edit: Added Phantom (thanks McJazz).
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 12:39:36 pm by Whaleyland » Logged

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« Reply #411 on: February 09, 2011, 04:05:17 am »

I'm going backwards and forwards on this. I do think the wording is significant, and that mayors can't be knights. But having checked over the rules for the princess, they only ever mention knights as well, yet mayors and wagons are legitimate targets for seduction...

I will add a footnote suggesting that 'knight' and so on probably includes all normal followers, but that ultimately we need an official confirmation...
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« Reply #412 on: February 09, 2011, 06:42:46 am »


One small thing I noticed was page 93.  Should bridges (from bridges/castles/bazaars) be under "Neutral Figures"?

By the way, FANTASTIC WORK!  It's great.
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« Reply #413 on: February 09, 2011, 06:50:18 am »

Thanks  Smiley

I added bridges, and also changed the text to clarify that they neutral figures don't belong to anyone once they are in play (because bridges and tower pieces still live in each player's supply).
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McJazz
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« Reply #414 on: February 09, 2011, 09:16:15 am »

... otherwise the rules may spontaneously implode on itself.

The only restriction of a Mayor is that it must be placed in a City (or the appropriate quarter of Carcassonne). It acts like a knight in all other respects: seduced by the Princess, eaten by the Dragon, walk through Portals, escape via cloister while under Siege??, flee from Fleas and even supports a Builder.

The wagon's only restriction is that it may only be deployed to a road, city or cloister and may never be deployed to a farm. Again, if it quacks like a duck...

IMHO, having Crop Circles affect big followers, Mayors and Wagons and Phantoms is the cleanest way to avoid Whaleyland's rules prophecy.

*Edited to include Phantoms
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 10:31:47 am by McJazz » Logged
McJazz
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« Reply #415 on: February 09, 2011, 11:31:54 am »

Whaleyland's link on page 84 is incomplete:

http://thesocietypages.org/economicsociology/2008/12/29/182/
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mjharper
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« Reply #416 on: February 09, 2011, 12:19:24 pm »

Whaleyland's link on page 84 is incomplete:

http://thesocietypages.org/economicsociology/2008/12/29/182/
Thanks. Corrected.

At the risk of seeming like I'm overdoing it, I uploaded beta 9, which included Whaleyland's corrections, and a revised overview, which was the last major part that was broken. I've uploaded it because I feel the CAR is now in a useable state, although I'm sure there are other errors to weed out.

My plan for beta 10 is to go through the Big Boxes and add new rulings; then version 5.0 should be finalised when we've got hold of the The Party and The Phantom. Somewhere in there I need to put in La Porky.

What I'd like from anyone willing to help is:
- proofreading
- new house rules (another thread?)
- a decision on whether to scrap the 'official' variations, or at least which to keep and add to the house rules
- any other ideas about what could be added
- (in another thread) a list of current questions for HiG.

Thanks for all your support and encouragement Cool
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« Reply #417 on: February 09, 2011, 02:11:08 pm »

All the expansions add so many complications, don't they? So if we follow the logic of the Crop Circles rules, then:

  • Follower = Follower (obviously)
  • Phantom = Follower
  • Big Follower = Follower
  • Trader ≠ Follower
  • Pig ≠ Follower
  • Mayor = Follower, but ≠ Knight
  • Wagon = Follower, but ≠ Farmer
  • Barn ≠ Follower

That is confusing and annoying. But I can't see any possible way the Crop Circles rules CAN'T effect the Big Follower or the Wagon since they are really just basic followers with extra abilities. That being said, so is the Mayor. And while the Mayor may ≠ a Knight, for all intent and purposes it does = a Knight. I'm inclined to still accept the Mayor as a Knight for the simple principle that otherwise the rules may spontaneously implode on itself.

Edit: Added Phantom (thanks McJazz).

Our group has found that there are a lot of discrepancies between the basic rules and all the various expansions (both official and unofficial), including those yet developed and released. No rule can be written to anticipate all future variations and expansions. To attempt to remember all the nuances of what a follower can and can't do during the course of a game is frustrating and distracting. That is why we boiled it down to a Follower (follower, big, mayor, wagon, phantom) is a Follower, and you need a quantum to be able to collect points. The intent was to transcend all current and future expansions. So far it has worked.

The only rule that we do adhere to is "The Wagon may never be deployed to a farm". That one I think they got right. If that is allowed it opens such questions as: Can a Wagon complete a cloister and just move to the adjacent unoccupied, incomplete farm? If I barn-score can I move back to an adjacent city? And at game end do I get to move the Wagon after my farm is scored? etc.

The Mayor rules in Abbey and Mayor state; "The Mayor may be deployed instead of a follower." The next sentence states; "It may only be deployed to a city in which there is currently no knight or mayor, the usual rules for deploying followers still apply." I take it that the first sentence is a broad statement, and that the second sentence does not necessarily limit the scope of the first, but arguably reinforces it by reminding that the usual rules still apply. The second sentence is simply qualifying the condition of the city that the Mayor (as any other follower) may be deployed to. That is, it must be empty. You could pull a different meaning from the sentence if it were worded like this; "It may be deployed only to a city in which there is...". Moving the location of the word "only". That would clearly limit the placement of the Mayor.
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« Reply #418 on: February 11, 2011, 03:36:46 am »

Bridges, Castles & Bazaars edits:
• Yes, you should revert its title back. Castles, Bridges & Bazaars is not the name used in the English version.
• p.77 – "When a tile with a bazaar on it is drawn, the player should place it as usual. " So, do people score and everything too, or does that wait until the end of the bazaar round? The rules seem very vague on that specific important point.
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« Reply #419 on: February 11, 2011, 04:30:05 am »

Bridges, Castles & Bazaars edits:
• Yes, you should revert its title back. Castles, Bridges & Bazaars is not the name used in the English version.
Already done :-)

• p.77 – "When a tile with a bazaar on it is drawn, the player should place it as usual. " So, do people score and everything too, or does that wait until the end of the bazaar round? The rules seem very vague on that specific important point.
That's really all the rules say, in both the original and HiG BB3 editions. But the RGG BB3 adds "(including placing a follower, scoring, and even not placing it if there is no place for it)." The last one is odd, as it suggests the tile may have an effect even if it is discarded; but RGG obviously has the same concerns as you.
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