Completely Annotated Rules - work in progress!

[djdahmer]

I'd say exclude it. Although it was partly created by Klaus-Jürgen Wrede (or in association with him) it was not released by Hans im Glück or Rio Grand Games & (as far as I have been able to find out) is listed as a fan expansion.

[CKorfmann]

I think the fact that it was endorsed by KJW is significant enough for an honorable mention at least.

[Carcking]

Wow, that is weird, I never noticed the misspelling on "basaars".
Thanks Whaleyland for pointing that out!

It's funny now that I think of it but we always call it "Castles, Bridges and Bazaars" at the table when we are playing, etc. Never the otherway around. I think we naturally slid into the alliteration thing.

Is that one vote for "Castles, Bridges and Bazaars"? 

Noo, I don't think it's my place to correct Klaus or Hans' official release. I vote BC&B.
I just have to remember that now.

[The Broox]

I think the fact that it was endorsed by KJW is significant enough for an honorable mention at least.

It was also sanctioned by the Carc Publisher in spain. So it is sanctioned by the creator and that country's publisher. The only thing it is missing HiG's approval.

[mjharper]

The only thing it is missing HiG's approval.

That's a pretty big 'only'.

I'm inclined to think that Bettlemönch (Labourer and Mendicant) should probably be considered official before La Porky, since that was for a long time hosted on HiG's site.

[The Broox]

The only thing it is missing HiG's approval.

That's a pretty big 'only'.

It is no different than the GQ11 tiles. Those are not officially recognized by HiG.

I'm inclined to think that Bettlemönch (Labourer and Mendicant) should probably be considered official before La Porky, since that was for a long time hosted on HiG's site.

I thought it was hot linked rather than hosted. Either way there was a disclaimer stating it was unofficial.

[CKorfmann]

It is no different than the GQ11 tiles. Those are not officially recognized by HiG.

Very good point.  It might be worth considering an Honorable Mention type of section to include such things (GQ11 might belong there as well), especially if they are sanctioned by another publisher, or listed/linked in some way on the HiG webpage.  In fact, if Jay is able to produce something of ours, it will undoubtedly fit this category as HiG is not interested.

[Whaleyland]

I've switched sides on the issue. After a discussion with mi amor, I've decided that Games Quarterly Expansion and La Porxada should both be included in a separate non-Hans im Glück section. In another idea, perhaps Spielbox and Rio Grande expansions should both be set aside. Thus:

Hans im Glück Expansions
Spielbox Expansions
• Cathars
• Tunnel
• Plague
Regional Expansions
• Games Quarterly #11
• Cult, Siege & Creativity
• La Porxada
• Any other otherwise unknown quasi-official expansions from Carc publishers

Spielbox is mostly Germany-exclusive, or at least has been, while RGG is English-only, La Porxada is Spain-only, etc. Labourer and Mendicant, though, I don't think should be included since it was never published by anyone.

[CKorfmann]

I was thinking about this some more today also and came to roughly the same conclusion as the Baronator.  I was thinking specifically of CS&C.  Isn't Shrines originally a Spielbox too?

[djdahmer]

I was thinking about this some more today also and came to roughly the same conclusion as the Baronator.  I was thinking specifically of CS&C.  Isn't Shrines originally a Spielbox too?

This is where it gets a little tricky - You're right that Shrines was originally Spielbox, but was of course later in Graf, König und Konsorten and Cult, Siege and Creativity. Does that make it both official and unofficial?

[mjharper]

I wasn't suggesting that Bettlemönch should be considered official, just that HiG arguably have a closer connection to it than La Porxada.

I've switched sides on the issue. After a discussion with mi amor, I've decided that Games Quarterly Expansion and La Porxada should both be included in a separate non-Hans im Glück section. In another idea, perhaps Spielbox and Rio Grande expansions should both be set aside. Thus:

Hans im Glück Expansions
Spielbox Expansions
• Cathars
• Tunnel
• Plague
Regional Expansions
• Games Quarterly #11
• Cult, Siege & Creativity
• La Porxada
• Any other otherwise unknown quasi-official expansions from Carc publishers

Spielbox is mostly Germany-exclusive, or at least has been, while RGG is English-only, La Porxada is Spain-only, etc. Labourer and Mendicant, though, I don't think should be included since it was never published by anyone.

I understand what you're saying, although the Spielbiox expansions are recognised listed by HiG. They are listed on the website, and HiG will answer rules questions about them. I really don't feel there's any need to split these off, other than to enforce a distinction between publishers. Though I'm open to arguments, I'm going to need some real convincing before I put these in a different section.

The RGG expansions could more justifiably be separated out, as they are properly independent of HiG. I'll be easier to convince here However, I would like to point out that only GQ11 really counts, as Cult, Siege and Creativity is effectively a compilation. And more importantly for the CAR, the whole document is an exchange or meeting between HiG and RGG. Yes, the rules (and rulings) are always HiG's. But RGG is a constant companion to the rules, if you will. The rules point out differences between say, the HiG and RGG versions of Big Box 3. I don't know whether the Spanish publisher has BB3, but it would not interest most readers of the CAR if they did. How many people would care whether the Spanish edition still uses 2nd edition scoring? But RGG using 1st edition scoring was the biggest issue in Carcland, until it was resolved.

The point is that RGG has a 'special' status in the CAR, and I think for most of it's readers. And, for example, if RGG publish a CC expansion, which can be bought in stores and from Amazon, I'm quite sure most readers—and possibly even HiG, which is much closer itself to RGG than others—would accord it a different status to La Porxada.

I was thinking about this some more today also and came to roughly the same conclusion as the Baronator.  I was thinking specifically of CS&C.  Isn't Shrines originally a Spielbox too?

This is where it gets a little tricky - You're right that Shrines was originally Spielbox, but was of course later in Graf, König und Konsorten and Cult, Siege and Creativity. Does that make it both official and unofficial?

They were part of Graf, König und Konsorten first, and everyone was massively disappointed when the Spielbox edition was essentially the same, to the point that many thought the Spielbox edition shouldn't be listed in the CAR at all.

[CKorfmann]

I'm tracking with your logic Matt.  Perhaps it would be appropriate to seperate expansions sanctioned by publishers other than HiG.  It follows that GQ11, La Porxada, and any possible CC expansion should probably go there.  I assume that GQ11 enjoys it's popularity simply due to the large pruduction run in the U.S.  If La Porxada never saw real production in Spain, that might be a condition worth considering.

[Whaleyland]

All good points and I'm more inclined now to keep the CAR as it is without La Porxada. It would certainly make things more logical. And since LP didn't ever have a release, even widely in Spain, it maybe should not be included.

[The Broox]

The RGG expansions could more justifiably be separated out, as they are properly independent of HiG. I'll be easier to convince here However, I would like to point out that only GQ11 really counts, as Cult, Siege and Creativity is effectively a compilation.

This could also be a chance to bring Kreivi ja Kuningas  into the mix. It was the first to bundle a bunch of the small expansions to make a bigger one.

And more importantly for the CAR, the whole document is an exchange or meeting between HiG and RGG. Yes, the rules (and rulings) are always HiG's. But RGG is a constant companion to the rules, if you will. The rules point out differences between say, the HiG and RGG versions of Big Box 3. I don't know whether the Spanish publisher has BB3, but it would not interest most readers of the CAR if they did. How many people would care whether the Spanish edition still uses 2nd edition scoring? But RGG using 1st edition scoring was the biggest issue in Carcland, until it was resolved.

I am not arguing that the most important rules are HiG's and RGG's (in that order) but since there are other Carc expansions out there that they don't cover should we not turn to them to be the authorities then? Similar to how the CAR turns to RGG to be the arbiter concerning the GQ11 expansion. As is already established, HiG rulings take precedence over RGG rulings. All we need to do is add a third tier for other publishers and as long as they don't directly conflict with HiG and RGG then why not include them.

The point is that RGG has a 'special' status in the CAR, and I think for most of it's readers. And, for example, if RGG publish a CC expansion, which can be bought in stores and from Amazon, I'm quite sure most readers—and possibly even HiG, which is much closer itself to RGG than others—would accord it a different status to La Porxada.

It was only available via the magazine. Furthermore, Amazon does not directly sell said magazine. You can get it from Titan Games via Amazon but it is not something Amazon itself stocks (they don't do periodicals). I make this point to illustrate that a  magazine with 12 tiles in it (and not rules) is not that different from a tile handed out at a conventions (that has rules).

[mjharper]

And more importantly for the CAR, the whole document is an exchange or meeting between HiG and RGG. Yes, the rules (and rulings) are always HiG's. But RGG is a constant companion to the rules, if you will. The rules point out differences between say, the HiG and RGG versions of Big Box 3. I don't know whether the Spanish publisher has BB3, but it would not interest most readers of the CAR if they did. How many people would care whether the Spanish edition still uses 2nd edition scoring? But RGG using 1st edition scoring was the biggest issue in Carcland, until it was resolved.

I am not arguing that the most important rules are HiG's and RGG's (in that order) but since there are other Carc expansions out there that they don't cover should we not turn to them to be the authorities then? Similar to how the CAR turns to RGG to be the arbiter concerning the GQ11 expansion. As is already established, HiG rulings take precedence over RGG rulings. All we need to do is add a third tier for other publishers and as long as they don't directly conflict with HiG and RGG then why not include them.

An 'honourable mention' section might be okay, but I'd like to have, say, three items to go in it.

The point is that RGG has a 'special' status in the CAR, and I think for most of it's readers. And, for example, if RGG publish a CC expansion, which can be bought in stores and from Amazon, I'm quite sure most readers—and possibly even HiG, which is much closer itself to RGG than others—would accord it a different status to La Porxada.

It was only available via the magazine. Furthermore, Amazon does not directly sell said magazine. You can get it from Titan Games via Amazon but it is not something Amazon itself stocks (they don't do periodicals). I make this point to illustrate that a  magazine with 12 tiles in it (and not rules) is not that different from a tile handed out at a conventions (that has rules).

I was using Amazon as an example of an online store. I certainly bought my copy of GQ11 online; it was a bit of a pain to find a company which would ship it internationally. But considerably easier, I'm sure, than getting hold of something only handed out in a Spanish convention.

The RGG expansions could more justifiably be separated out, as they are properly independent of HiG. I'll be easier to convince here However, I would like to point out that only GQ11 really counts, as Cult, Siege and Creativity is effectively a compilation.

This could also be a chance to bring Kreivi ja Kuningas  into the mix. It was the first to bundle a bunch of the small expansions to make a bigger one.

Fair enough. Are there any other suggestions from anyone? And it would be great if you could provide links to official sites.

At the moment I'm inclined to not include La Porxada in v5.0, although I'm not entirely opposed to an honourable mention section in a later version. But to do that I need a bit more content. There's enough do be done with the CAR for this release in any case; but what I will try and do is clarify the approach to content the document now uses (effectively what we've discussed above) in the introduction.