King and Robber Baron varient

[skipboris]

I have no idea if this has been posted before or not.  This variant simply adds a bit of value to king/robber during the game.

Heres the rule: If you have the king tile, you are immune to the effects of the princess tiles.  This is because the princess is your daughter and therefore you have influence over her.  If you have the robber you are immune to Cathars tiles.  This is because your robbers steal from and confuse the would be siegers.  When scoring a city, if you have the robber tile, it negates the cathars effects and you score the city normally. Farmers still score double for the city because they still supply the confused siegers.

While this is just a small tweak to the rules, and the "why" story can definitely be tweaked, if you think about this it could add some really interesting strategy.  For instance, if you were going for king and got sieged, you could wait until you got robber baron before completing.  It gives a cool incentive to go for these bonuses even during play (besides the final count).

[dwhitworth]

Nice idea, but what about those of us who don't have/can't get the Cathars tiles 

Perhaps we could have the robber baron make our thieves on roads immune to the Dragon?

[Gantry]

I don't have the Cathar tiles, but I think it's a good idea to be inclusive rather than exclusive

[Joff]

I was waiting for this to be moved to a new thread before I posted

Heres the rule: If you have the king tile, you are immune to the effects of the princess tiles.  This is because the princess is your daughter and therefore you have influence over her.

This is a great idea. Especially the King tile having immunity from the princess. That's logical.

However, there is a 'fly in the ointment' so to speak in regard to the Robber idea, as has been mentioned. If the King is being played in the P&D expansion for immunity from something, so also should the Robber be able to be used in P&D for something.

This sort of thing from dwhitworth:

Perhaps we could have the robber baron make our thieves on roads immune to the Dragon?

The variant would be exclusively for use when playing P&D with King/Robber Baron, but as I have already said, it is a great idea and one that can be definately worked on. Good storyline with the King. Excellent idea skipboris.

[skipboris]

As is, it would only be a working variant if you were playing with all expansions, or at least PD, KS, and Cathars.  To me, this is the best, most balanced way to use this variant.  It adds meat to both the KS and Cathars mini expansions.  To give robbers dragon immunity is redundant, considering the fairy.  It would also be overpowered; unbalanced.  The fairy is not very strong protection (1 meeple only) and is easily moved.  Not to mention, theres just no good story to explain that!    But I'm open to other ideas.

To those without Cathars:  It is very easy to craft your own! 

Heres what you need: leftover tiles (I used the HG scout tiles from king & scout), Full sheet(s) label paper, scissors, file or sand paper.

Instructions:
1- Get a digital copy of Cathars, and tile backs.  You can find these at boardgamegeek.com.
2- Print Cathars, and backs on Label paper.  I went to an office store so i could use a laser printer and only buy the sheets I need.
3- Cut and stick to the tiles, both front and back. 
4- I used a file to smooth and round the edges, and to shave off any excess.  Rough sandpaper should probably work.
5- Optional - Print Cathars tuck box on card stock.  Diagram can also be found at boardgamegeek. 

The final product is near perfect Cathar tiles! The only difference is the label paper texture is slightly different from normal tiles.  So if your using the bag, and someone is taking a long time to pull one out, you might have a Cathar hunter on your hands!  Alternatively, if you use the tower dispenser, you should be fine.

[Scott]

I like the King/Princess idea. I'm not sold on the Robber Baron/Cathars idea.

Having the Robber Baron protect meeples from the dragon is probably a little unbalanced. I think that the idea of establishing some link between the robber baron and thieves is a good one though. Need some time to think about this further.

I've made my own Cathars tiles until I can get my hands on the real thing. I also used the label paper method, and it's pretty tough to tell the difference unless you spend a lot of time feeling the tiles. I used a hobby knife instead of scissors, which does a cleaner job.

[skipboris]

Heres a few ideas for thieves:

Robber Baron allows you to:

1) Immediately score any thief, even if the road is incomplete - 1 at a time only.  (Nice if you need meeples, or are unlikely to finish the road)
or
2) Thieves only are immune to dragon.  (less powerful because it only saves thieves, and encourages player to be a thieving player)
or
3) Thieves score an extra point per tile (but I don't really like this one).
or
4) instead of placing any wood, you may remove another players thief and return it to their stock. You essentially bully out the competition.  (could be too powerful, but fun.  Maybe the fairy protects against this?  or the king?)

[Deatheux]

about the robber baron / thief on road, maybe give the follower a +2 (i.e. small =3 and big sollower =4) against the other meeples who try to combine/steal the road im process... if the +2 thing is too heavy, maybe just give a +1.

the idea about the King / princess is fizzled is completely AMAZING!!!

groovy!!

[crasher]

If you have the Robber Baron and someone tries to join your road you win all ties. That way if someone manages to get 2 meeples or a large meeple on the same road as you they are rewarded for their thievery.

Some story for you:

Since the Robber Baron is the leader of the thieves guild other thieves are required to defer to his underlings. However since they're thieves and not exactly law abiding they sometimes use brute force to overpower the Baron's thieves.

[dwhitworth]

The story and the winning of ties for the baron hangs together but still does not meet Joff's point about the advantages both being related to the same expansion.

One idea may be that if you are playing the Tower, then with the King your Knights are immune to being taken prisoner and with the Baron your thieves are immune. Or if you are playing A&M then King allows a mayor in a non-pennant city to count one toward majority and the Baron allows a wagon to move across one empty completed road after completing a feature. With P&D it is more difficult to balance options.

Maybe the easiest is to allow the King to add two points to a completed city and the Baron to add a point to a road. At least that approach is expansion-independent.

I think one of the great things about this game is how it allows for these kinds of house rules/variants to be developed easily and to have a good likelihood of being effective in game play.

[skipboris]

I like the baron winning all ties.  That does make the card more interesting.  Heres another idea to throw in: Robber baron acts like a free builder on his longest road.  This would definitely add some added value to the card, and increase the strategy.  This could mean some interesting early strategies as people try to "secure" the baron.  I for one, think both effects would make a well rounded variant.  So, rough draft #2:

1) The holder of the king tile is immune to the effects of the princess tiles.  The king is the princesses father and therefore has influence over her.

2) The power and influence of the robber baron allows the tile holder to a) win all ties when calculating the majority on roads, and b) act as if his longest road has a builder.

The requirement for this variant is simply the P&D expansion. 

how does it look now?

[skipboris]

Wait never mind that one needs the builder rules

[skipboris]

Another idea to throw out there:

Robber baron resides on the longest road in Carcassonne.  His master thieves on this road steal extra from surrounding farmers and cities.  (this may or may not need balancing)

Rule: All cities connected to the longest road score 1 less point per tile upon scoring.  Robber baron may choose not to enforce this.  Farmers do not count tiles containing the longest road.  RB may choose not to enforce this.

Or, another version of this: Robber Baron steals 1 point from all cities connected to the longest road upon scoring.  RB steals 1 point per farm tile when connecting farm is scored.

Both versions only apply to the longest road.  With this, you get a cathar flavor, without actually having the expansion.  You only need P&D for the king part.

[Scott]

The story and the winning of ties for the baron hangs together but still does not meet Joff's point about the advantages both being related to the same expansion.

One idea may be that if you are playing the Tower, then with the King your Knights are immune to being taken prisoner and with the Baron your thieves are immune. Or if you are playing A&M then King allows a mayor in a non-pennant city to count one toward majority and the Baron allows a wagon to move across one empty completed road after completing a feature. With P&D it is more difficult to balance options.

Maybe the easiest is to allow the King to add two points to a completed city and the Baron to add a point to a road. At least that approach is expansion-independent.

I think one of the great things about this game is how it allows for these kinds of house rules/variants to be developed easily and to have a good likelihood of being effective in game play.

All of those sound interesting.

Sorry to say I am not keen on any of Boris' ideas. They are not bad ideas, they just don't pique my interest.

[skipboris]

It's a work in progress.

One more idea for robber Baron; Owner of this tile can "steal the fairy."  Player simply pays 2 victory points and steals the fairy.  This action is in addition to the regular "move the wood."

Example:  you draw a cloister and want to put a meeple on it.  BUT, your largest city is threatened by the dragon.  You could claim the cloister with a meeple, AND pay 2 VP to move the fairy. 

This variant along with the well liked king idea would only effect KS and PD, as requested.

thoughts?