City on Fire

[CKorfmann]

Good job on those tiles and chits.  They look really good.  Merit for that photo.  Please post in the Crafter's Guild about how you made them.

[Carcking]

This looks good but I haven't had a chance to read the rules yet. I do like the fire tokens though.
IMHO I would prefer to see a trebuchet in the camp on the placeholder tile - so that it ties the tiles to the trebuchet token.

I will get a chance to look at the rules over the weekend.

Great job so far!

[palkan]

First of all: nice work Palkan! Over all i like your concept obviously    Took a quick read and here's what pops to mind:

To my opinion there are some flaws still that need some straightening out. Most important of all: why would I now bother to place a trebuchet on a tile? There is no reward when it is completed, and the effects on a damaged city seem minor. I would have to miss a follower that might score me loads of points instead elsewhere, or two followers for that matter. Even though I seriously like to be able to destroy completed cities bordering fields of my opponents farmers and in addition no end score - so that's a plus - i would be persuaded more when my trebuchet would add to my score in some way.

Such an unobvious mechanics is clearified by the following historical/realistic aspects:

• trebuchet is a rather complicated device (for Carcassonne meeple-people), that's why a player has a limited number of them. If there was a trebuchet as a part of a tile there might be a situation, when one player has many trebuchets and another has none. Not fair, too many randomness.
• a situation, when you want to attack some new city, but all you trebuchets are being used (thus incomplete), shows, that in 'real life' you need mcuh time to move trebuchet from one place to another. As in the game you have to complete your trebuchet first (i.e. to spent few turns) to use it again.
• why use followers? first, you must sacrifice smth to damage smth else (rather philosophical question); secondly, to shoot with trebuchet you have to tighten a bow string, and more peaple tighten further you shoot (that's why 2 followers = larger hitting area).
• why trebuchet itself scores nothing? this is the main question. I was thinking about it for a while, and I've realized that scoring nothing is just another feature of the expansion, which can be used to kinda steal (or, really, make-no-to-get) opponents points when playing with the School or upcoming Robber. Although, maybe a player completing a trebuchet is worth to get a few points. Need to think (and to test).
  

- And why not score on damaging cities with a knight in some way? I sense there could be more play there.

You mean incomplete cities at the game's end? yeah, maybe there is a way to score such cities too, but I think it would be rather complicated = too complicated in an already complicated expansion.

- Trebuchet completed: You say 1) there is no score but 2) it is to be regarded as completed feature when using school expansion, nice, but 2x0 is not a lot 

see above

- when exactly can a knight 'run'  when a trebuchet is placed on a tile?

Maybe some mistakes in the rules. A knight can run immedietly after placing a city-on-fire token and only in that time.

- Am I to assume that when two followers are on 1 trebuchet the grid is including the diagonal lines like you drawn out? I don't understand the 3 shooting options in your 2nd example. A third segment lies diagonally towards the trebuchet.

When there is one shooter the hitting area is clear, I think. When there are two shooters, the hitting area is a 5 on 5 square without corners.

- Do the camps mark an end to the roads on the tiles where the tents lay over the road?

Yes, a road ends in a camp (in any direction).

[palkan]

Good job on those tiles and chits.  They look really good.  Merit for that photo.  Please post in the Crafter's Guild about how you made them.

There is nothing interesting or secret about making the tiles/tokens: blank tiles from H&G, Lomond sticker paper and HP Laserjet. Also, I've used CS&C tiles (all tiles, not only blank) for making tokens. Yeas, I've spoiled the whole mini-exp)) But there were two reasons: 1) I've got Cult from "Graf, König und Konsorten" and I've ordered the Kathars (but not yet received) from Spielbox; 2) there was a little but noticeable color difference in tiles' back.

The very hard part of the work was to cut out the tokens) Now I don't want to create expansions with tokens or anything like this) Just tiles)  


MOD: Editted my own typo.

[CKorfmann]

The Carcassonne Shop has chits for sale if you were to do it again. 

[Carcking]

After getting a chance to read the rules I have to say I like the concept - however I would try to incorporate a scoring mechanic - since that is the principle mechanic of Carc. The point is valid that if it doesn't produce a score but requires an investment of meeples the feature is likely to get neglected. Maybe something based on how many city-on-fire tokens you are able to place - or points for a completed destroyed city - maybe if you are able to destroy a city you take over the points for the city - something like that?

I like the mechanic of when the 9-tile grid is complete the trebuchet is removed. It gives players a chance at self defense if they are trying to protect a city - or limit the amount of damage to it. They get your feature completed and the trebuchet threat is removed.

The free deployment of a knight on the trebucet token doesn't sit right with me also. It should be the wood move of a player's turn...or if you want it to be a "free" deployment one option you could do is that when a city gets completed that contains one of your knights you have the option of entering it on the trebuchet token instead of bringing it back to your supply. Then no followers may be entered directly to the trebuchet from your supply - they have to come from a just completed city. That resembles in real life that they are already on the map and they have been summoned to the trebuchet to oversee the operation.

It's a good concept overall - and I like the re-naming to City on Fire. It's fitting. 

[Carcatronn]

Good job on those tiles and chits.  They look really good.  Merit for that photo.  Please post in the Crafter's Guild about how you made them.

There is nothing interesting or secret about making the tiles/tokens: blank tiles from H&G, Lomond sticker paper and HP Laserjet. Also, I've used CS&C tiles (all tiles, not only blank) for making tokens. Yeas, I've spoiled the whole mini-exp)) But there were two reasons: 1) I've got Cult from "Graf, König und Konsorten" and I've ordered the Kathars (but not yet received) from Spielbox; 2) there was a little but noticeable color difference in tiles' back.

The very hard part of the work was to cut out the tokens) Now I don't want to create expansions with tokens or anything like this) Just tiles) 


MOD: Editted my own typo.

The Carcassonne Shop has chits for sale if you were to do it again. 

The chits and tokens look great! We do have the tokens available for sale (thanks CK!) so no cutting would be needed.. I was also thinking maybe use the Mini Carc tiles for the Trebuchet chits? However, they are slightly bigger than what is shown in your picture. All in all, fantastic work Palkan, can't wait to test it out!

[CKorfmann]

The chits and tokens look great! We do have the tokens available for sale (thanks CK!) so no cutting would be needed.. I was also thinking maybe use the Mini Carc tiles for the Trebuchet chits? However, they are slightly bigger than what is shown in your picture. All in all, fantastic work Palkan, can't wait to test it out!

The square ones look to be about the same size as some of the catapult chits, or maybe even the plague markers.

[Carcatronn]

The square ones look to be about the same size as some of the catapult chits, or maybe even the plague markers.

Yeah, but getting enough of the chits or markers would pose difficult ... Unless you only make six?

[Trebuchet]

Maybe palkans initial idea of using castles tokens would work best for the trebuchet after all? I will use those when city on fire tiles are made here.

[Trebuchet]

- And why not score on damaging cities with a knight in some way? I sense there could be more play there.

You mean incomplete cities at the game's end? yeah, maybe there is a way to score such cities too, but I think it would be rather complicated = too complicated in an already complicated expansion.

No i meant some direct scoring effect on hitting a city segment when a trebuchet damages a city segment. Kind of what Carcking states also; you wouldn't want the feature to be neglected what is now likely to happen.

[palkan]

- And why not score on damaging cities with a knight in some way? I sense there could be more play there.

You mean incomplete cities at the game's end? yeah, maybe there is a way to score such cities too, but I think it would be rather complicated = too complicated in an already complicated expansion.

No i meant some direct scoring effect on hitting a city segment when a trebuchet damages a city segment. Kind of what Carcking states also; you wouldn't want the feature to be neglected what is now likely to happen.

Hm, interesting...

I've got an idea (based on what Carcking said):
1) Shooter get 1 point for every damaged segment = every placed city-on-fire token.
2) Shooter get 1 point for each city tile when destroying a city.

In both cases pennants are ignored.

3) Destroying 2-segment city scores 2 points.

Thus a player can get full city score (modulo ignored pennants).
And there is a more interesting situation - when several players attacking the same city - they just share these points.
And this is the way to get points for already completed cities!

Maybe, some special rules about Cathedral - damaging Cathedral tile scores 2 points.

And about the deployment of a knight on a trebuchet. It is of course a type of the wood move. I think, there is a little bit of misunderstanding in the rules where "... 3 additional actions ... ". They are not additional but possible, i.e. they are the wood move actions. No 'free' deployment or 'free' shooting, of course.

The idea of placing second follower from-the-map is good, but I think it will be hard enough for a player to do this before his trebuchet will be completed by opponents, especially in many-players game.

[palkan]

Updated rules (v 0.2): http://www.mediafire.com/?f719niu3fl8edzl