City on Fire

[palkan]

Yes, I know that there exists the fan-expansion titled "Trebuchet". But I have known this only after I've made my own one, so let me call it "trebuchet" too. Maybe, someone will offer a new title.

Description.

Some tiles contains a new feature - the trebuchet.

Q: What we use the trebuchet for?
A: To do harm to cities, even to destroy cities (maybe cloisters/cults too).

How it works?

Every player got a number of Fire Projectile tokens. In his turn player can place a follower on the trebuchet (on any free trebuchet on the board!) - let's call such follower a Shooter. Then the player has several additional actions per turn:
1) flinging the projectile;
2) place another follower on the same trebuchet tile (up to 2 followers on the one trebuchet).
3*) place a trebuchet tile and make immediately fling;

Flinging

The trebuchet works just like the Tower: it can shoot only orthogonally at the distance from 2 up to 1+number of shooters - the flinging area. It means that the trebuchet can not do harm to adjacent tiles, 'cause the min distance is 2 (no shooter = no flinging).  

The flining is a placing of the Fire Projectile token on some city tile within the flinging area. The token remains on the tile till the game's end. This tile is damaged and the city itself is damaged too.


Effect of the Fire Projectile

1) During the game:
   - damaged tiles are not counting when scoring;
   - a complete city with all tiles damaged is destroyed;
   - a comlete 2-tiled city with at least the one damaged tile is destroyed (the token must be placed on both tiles);
   - a knight on the damaged tile can run away from the fire to any free and undamaged tile of the same city; if there are no such tiles the knight returns to the supply;
   - a knight may escaped from the damaged city at the end of a player's turn if the damaged tile borders a Cloister on any side (even diagonally);
   - an incomlete damaged city scores no points at the end of the game;
   
2) Farm Scoring:
   - destroyed cities scores nothing for farms;
   - damaged cities scores -1 for every damaged tile to normal scoring;

3) Expansions:
   - a trebuchet can do no harm to castles;
   - a trebuchet can do no harm to the Count of Carcassone;
   - a trebuchet can do no harm to Dragon or Princess;
   - a trebuchet can do no harm to Teacher or School;
   - the fair leaves a running-away knight and returns aside of the board;
   - a builder also can run away from fire the same way as a knight;
   - if a tile with trader's goods icon is damaged then the completing of this city doesn't give player a goods token (you should place Fire token on the goods icon);
   - the Cathedral rules has not worked since the Cathedral tile is damaged;
   - a city both besieged and damaged scores the following way for farms: first, counts the normal city value (3 or 4 w/pig), then the sum is subsctructed by the number of damaged tiles and only then the result is doubled;  
   - a shooter can be captured by a tower (but only one shooter per turn, even if there are two shooters on the same tile);
   - a shooter can be eaten by Dragon (Dragon can eat all shooters on the tile);
   - the Fair can protect a shooter(-s);
        - the large meeple is counting as two normal meeples for flinging; you can not place large meeple and normal meeple on the same tile together.
    

Completing a trebuchet

Trebuchet is complete (or surrounded) when all 8 tiles next to it orthogonally and diagonally are placed (the same as cloisters). Then shooters return back to their supply.

If a player complete his own trebuchet then he has the last fling chance.

If a player place a trebuchet tile which fits a hole then he can place a tile, make a fling and only then complete a trebuchet.


Completing trebuchet scores no points.

A player can not place follower on a completed trebuchet.


Number of tiles and tokens

Number of tiles - 12.

Number of tokens:
5-6 players - 4 per player
4 palyers - 5 per player
2-3 players - 6 per player


Graphic (sketch):

[quevy]

Personally I do not really like the catapult, not understanding English well I did not understand correctly what you wrote, but it looks interesting.

I hope you're not angry if I adjusted a little to your tile.

[Scott]

Somehow it feels wrong to have an expansion called Trebuchet without a wooden model of a trebuchet. I mean, Catapult has set a precedent.

But seriously, this sounds pretty good, though I think it would be very difficult to destroy an entire city if you can only shoot orthogonally. I notice that the trebuchet image comes from CS&C; does that one trebuchet also count as a trebuchet in your expansion?

[palkan]

Yeah, orthogonally shooting is a problem... Maybe, we should expand aiming area in diagonal directions too.

About wooden model.
I think, that a wooden model is not a good case in fan-exp. But I've got a new idea: trebuchet tokens (similar to Castle tokens). And then we need tiles with trebuchet places. It looks more and more like the Tower)

I need to gather this new thoughts together to present them precisely.

[quevy]

Now I think I understand better. Beautiful.

[Scott]

While you're gathering thoughts, he's another one. When I was reading this, I kept thinking about the dice in the upcoming Flier expansion. Maybe rolling a die is how the range of the shot is determined? It sounds slightly cruel, but Flashpoint Fire Rescue is equally guilty of this and I've not heard anybody complain about that.

[Trebuchet]

I like the idea and look forward to any further developments.    

What surprised me is that you named your expansion 'trebuchet', as it - like you stated- exists already in another format however, still. :  As i came up with that particular expansion, i can tell you that it is still in development and needs a revised rule sheet as soon as it is properly playtested, for which i sadly hadn't had much time up until now. I will however update the topic as soon as it's there (as goes for stained glass expansion)

Question; Wouldn't you want to consider a different expansion title for your expansion to avoid any mix-up?
There's a lot of time and effort invested in mine already and i for one would appreciate that  

[CKorfmann]

Maybe you should join forces.

[Trebuchet]

Well I'm certainly not against that, that trebuchet expansion was however specifically designed to influence the destruction of towers when playing the Tower expansion. If that aspect can be incorporated somehow in the new ideas posted here, i don't see any harm in joining forces at all.

for your ref. on that expansion

Trebuchet rules V0.2 are to be found here

Trebuchet tiles are to be found here

I obviously wouldn't want to impose on anyone's creativity on this board, i like the idea however to be able to play some form of Trebuchet with the basic game + all expansions other then just w/ Tower. I suspect things should be simplified when incorporating, so all togeheter there are pros and cons to be taken back to the drawing board i suppose. But if that means we're getting a better and completer expansion, lets go for it!

[palkan]

While you're gathering thoughts, he's another one. When I was reading this, I kept thinking about the dice in the upcoming Flier expansion. Maybe rolling a die is how the range of the shot is determined? It sounds slightly cruel, but Flashpoint Fire Rescue is equally guilty of this and I've not heard anybody complain about that.

yes, I was thinking about a dice too (thanks to the Flier) but rejected it for the first time. I want to reduce the value of randomness, though I will try to use dice during test games.


Trebuchet
I think the logics of our expansions are rather differerent to combine them. As for me, the only reason to use title 'Trebuchet' is using trebuchet's art from Seiges. And also it sounds good enough)

In my case, I would like to use 'Catapult' instead of 'Trebuchet', but... you know.

Neveretheless, I will choose a final title only when the expansion will be completed, and, I hope, it'll be another one.

[Trebuchet]

Trebuchet
I think the logics of our expansions are rather differerent to combine them. As for me, the only reason to use title 'Trebuchet' is using trebuchet's art from Seiges. And also it sounds good enough)

In my case, I would like to use 'Catapult' instead of 'Trebuchet', but... you know.

Neveretheless, I will choose a final title only when the expansion will be completed, and, I hope, it'll be another one.

Fair enough, the logics are indeed too far apart i suppose. I too used that machine pict off of siege tile art, they are called 'mangonel' too. Maybe a suggestion as for titling your upcoming expansion... 

[palkan]

so, I've tried the first testing game with this exp. It's very interesting, changes gameplay almost so much as the Tower do.

I used the Castle tokens to represent Trebuchets and tower bricks to represent projectiles (and also tower foundations as trebuchet placeholders).

Hence some changes in rules:

1. We have trebuchets on tiles, but we have trebuchet placeholders. So player, in addition to all other actions, may place trebuchet token on any unoccupied and uncompleted trebuchet placeholder. You must place your follower (but only one per turn) on this token.

2. Every player has fixed number of trebuchets and projectiles at the game start.

3. Hitting area:
   - if you have one Shooter (normal Shooter):

-	+	-
+	T	+
-	+	-

  - if you have two Shooters (or large Shooter=large follower):

-	+	+	+	-
+	+	+	+	+
+	+	T	+	+
+	+	+	+	+
-	+	+	+	-

And some sketches:

placeholder tile



trebuchet token




P.S. I haven't tried to play with dice yet, but will do soon.

[palkan]

Another new graphics: city-on-fire token (front and back).

[palkan]

Finally, it's done.

I've decided to title it 'City On Fire'. But trebuchets still remain in the expansion.

Rules & tiles http://www.mediafire.com/?dpp1esoxu55oodg

Here it looks like:

[Trebuchet]

First of all: nice work Palkan! Over all i like your concept obviously    Took a quick read and here's what pops to mind:

To my opinion there are some flaws still that need some straightening out. Most important of all: why would I now bother to place a trebuchet on a tile? There is no reward when it is completed, and the effects on a damaged city seem minor. I would have to miss a follower that might score me loads of points instead elsewhere, or two followers for that matter. Even though I seriously like to be able to destroy completed cities bordering fields of my opponents farmers and in addition no end score - so that's a plus - i would be persuaded more when my trebuchet would add to my score in some way.

- And why not score on damaging cities with a knight in some way? I sense there could be more play there.
- Trebuchet completed: You say 1) there is no score but 2) it is to be regarded as completed feature when using school expansion, nice, but 2x0 is not a lot 
- when exactly can a knight 'run'  when a trebuchet is placed on a tile?
- Am I to assume that when two followers are on 1 trebuchet the grid is including the diagonal lines like you drawn out? I don't understand the 3 shooting options in your 2nd example. A third segment lies diagonally towards the trebuchet.
- Do the camps mark an end to the roads on the tiles where the tents lay over the road?

It has potential in my view, a good first version, hopefully others can contribute suggestions/comments as well to make City on fire work well.