Can a Mayor escape a besieged city? (Cathars expansion)

[Borderking]

If your city is besieged with a tile from the Cathars expansion, and there is an Abbey or Cloister adjoining, just who is actually allowed to escape from the city?  The current Annotated Rules mention only knights, but the FAQ mentions followers.  So, just to be sure, what about builders (not followers), and what about mayors (are followers, I think)?  Any other possibilities I have forgotten?

[mjharper]

Mayors are allowed to escape, I think… Although I should maybe ask this one, and clear up the rules. The problem is that The Cathars only meant 'knights', but there are more options now…

[Scott]

Hmm... I already posted my thoughts on this in the other thread, so I feel kind of bad posting again here.

Since the builder isn't a follower, I think he cannot escape, though once all knights escape the builder would automatically be returned to your supply since he is not allowed to be alone.

The big follower would undoubtedly fall under the "knights" category. A mayor is sort of a specialized follower who is only allowed to be deployed to cities. However, in the Annotated Rules on page 41, a distinction is made between the mayor and knights. Part of me suspects so, but I think asking HiG is warranted. Might also be good to ask about the wagon then too, since it can also be deployed to a city. I think that they will say yes to both, since a wagon escaping via a cloister is a bit more realistic than a wagon being seduced by a princess, which has already been confirmed possible.

[Borderking]

Maybe the princess is a wagonophiliac.

Yes, thank you for your responses.  It seems the only clarifications needed for many of these concerns are the exact classifications for each piece...(Either the Mayor is a follower, plain and simple, or he's not a follower and he's something else)...and specifically which type of pieces are allowed to escape a besieged city?

The same goes for everything else...we know the Dragon eats both followers and "other pieces" like builders and pigs.  But what is the the best term to use?  He eats all...whats?

I wish there were a more precise classification system.  Ok, followers include the knights, thieves, monks, farmers, etc., including the big guys.  And maybe Mayors.  And I guess Wagons.  But if builders aren't followers, what are they?  "Special pieces?"  That doesn't really satisfy.  And pigs?  There should be a straightforward, precise classification and hierarchy of the different pieces, and then every question could be answered with clarity...like, "Only followers can escape a besieged city," and "Dragons eat [insert correct term here]."

And the barn?  I'm still not sure I understand HiG's response, saying something like "barns aren't really followers, but you can consider them as such."  What does that mean?

[Tobias]

It would be easier if meeples would be considered followers and the rest not (the big meeple is a meeple), and the dragon doeasn't care - he'll eat or destroy anything (except the fairy).

That way we wouldn't ever get into a state of confusion. And, well, that's the way my group is playing :P

[Scott]

Page 45 of the Annotated Rules gives three categories of wood...

Followers: small meeple, big meeple, mayor, wagon
Special figures: builder, pig, barn
Neutral figures: tower piece, fairy, dragon, count

Can the dragon eat (read: destroy) barns? If so, then it could be said that the dragon eats followers and special figures (ie. all non-neutral figures). We know for sure that the dragon cannot eat any neutral figure. If the dragon cannot eat/destroy barns, then the "he eats all..." sentence cannot be completed.

I've also seen an illustrated distinction diagram, either on here or at BGG or both.

[Borderking]

You're right, it would be simple if the Dragon could destroy a barn.

But did you notice HiG's cryptic response to whether or not Mayors, Barns, and Wagons are followers?  He said that Mayors and Wagons are followers, and that "the barn is a special figure, although it can also be counted as a follower."

What does that mean?   

[Scott]

The barn is almost in a category of its own. It doesn't follow normal follower deployment rules, and unlike the pig and builder, the barn exists on its own. (In fact, it kicks followers off the farm. Only the pig can stay if it belongs to the same player as the barn.)

The best answer I can think of is that the barn can be counted as a follower by it's ability to exist by itself, but is a special figure because it cannot do the things that a follower can do (cannot be deployed to the city of Carcassonne, cannot use magic portals, cannot be eaten by the dragon, etc.)

Yes, I just said that barns cannot be eaten by the dragon. I feel a little dumb for not noticing this before, but it's right there in the rules (very last sentence). So getting back to what the dragon eats, he doesn't eat all non-neutral figures. He eats all followers, pigs, and builders. This gives the barn an EXTRA quality that neither followers nor the other special figures have, further supporting the need for it to exist in a category by itself.

Getting back to the original question of this thread, which followers are considered knights?

Followers: small meeple, big meeple, mayor, wagon

Definitely the small and big meeples are knights, but what about the mayor and the wagon? I don't think anyone would say that a wagon could be knighted, so either only knights can escape via a cloister/abbey, or the rules need to be changed to say that followers can escape, thereby including the mayor and wagon which are not knights.

Of course, the wagon is presumably more than just a wagon. According to the introductory paragraph, the wagon also includes the merchant who is tranporting his/her wares in the wagon. If the merchant could be permitted to escape with his wagon via the cloister, everything would be fine, but if the wagon hinders the merchant's escape, the player would have to complete the city and escape to an adjacent but unfinished feature. Or perhaps the wagon can escape to the cloister if the cloister is unoccupied and unfinished?

We're building quite the list of things that need official rulings.

[Borderking]

That's a great explanation.  Although I wonder what HiG, himself, really meant, when he said that a barn can be thought of as a follower.  I wonder if he would rephrase that statement.

So now, in the current hierarchy, the barn is not a follower, not a "special figure," and not a "neutral figure?"  It can exist on its own (unlike the builder and pig), but it cannot be eaten by a dragon.

You'd think the dragon could incinerate the barn.

[koolkat]

Sorry about late post entry.
If rules say only knights can escape besieged cities, then mayors can't. A mayor is not a knight, now, is it?
Answering another question on this topic, it's logical that the dragon can not eat barns. The dragon eats what is IN a tile and barns are placed on tiles crossings, if I'm making myself clear... Am I right or wrong?

[Novelty]

Eventhough a mayor is not a knight... footnote 164 of the CAR says:

"164 Question: If your city is besieged with a tile from The Cathars, and there is an abbey or cloister adjoining, can
the mayor or wagon escape? Answer: Mayors and wagons can also escape via cloisters and abbeys (although it
would be quite amusing if the mayor stayed, like a captain going down with the ship)."

So a mayor can escape!  koolkat - do you have a copy of the latest CAR?

[koolkat]

Yes, I do have. And I do remember that quote. Sorry everybody for wrong statement on the post.