Multiple pigs and pig farms?

[jcardwell3rd]

We play that each one adds a point per city. It that right or is are two pig farms the same as one?

[CKorfmann]

I'm trying to think of another example of a similar mechanic, but it escapes me right now.  However, I play that they do not stack.  Probably Inn and Cathedral tiles are the best examples.

[Scott]

A pig and a pig farm is +2, for a total of 5 points per city. I would not recommend stacking pig farms, partly because you're scoring enough points already, and partly because we're "not supposed to" be using that other tile as a pig farm.

[Carcking]

We play that they stack as I find nothing to the contrary in the rules (not counting the GQ11 tile). We play that the River II tile may be stacked with a T&B Pig for a plus 2 to cities. We also play the GQ11 tile as a pig farm so in our games you could stack a plus 3. It turns up the competition for that particular farm.

I've mentioned in other threads too that we play with neutral white pigs deployed on the River II and GQ11 tiles that can be removed or eaten off the tiles - which permanently neutralize the plus 1 for that tile.

Like a lot of other rule scenarios it comes down to personal preference for your group. If official rulings come down we tend to stick with them.

[Deatheux]

Hi, the farm segment FFFF supplied in G11 expn was not declared a pig herd(officially).

but with the addition of the 1,000 tiles and considering that majority of the games are not played with ALL of the tiles(neither the river are used...) can we reverse the call to use this herd as a pig herd??

or we still use it AS a house rule(i will still use the house rules... but...)


Merged.

[CKorfmann]

Officially it is not a pig herd, but I suspect everyone plays it as one.


Merged.

[CKorfmann]

I've mentioned in other threads too that we play with neutral white pigs deployed on the River II and GQ11 tiles that can be removed or eaten off the tiles - which permanently neutralize the plus 1 for that tile.

That's really interesting.  Seems reasonable. 

I think the heart of the matter is the official, non-official ruling that the GQ11 is not a pig herd.  I think the majority consensus is that that is a dumb rule, as Tobias put it, an afterthought.  This being the case, there is only one official pig herd tile in the game and therefore, no need for an official ruling.

In reality... for the 99% of the population that does play it as a pig herd, we have to make up a rule and the precedent, I believe, is set by other tiles that augment scoring such as the Cathedral, the Inn, and the Siege/Cather tiles, none of which stack with like tiles.

[Scott]

In reality... for the 99% of the population that does play it as a pig herd, we have to make up a rule and the precedent, I believe, is set by other tiles that augment scoring such as the Cathedral, the Inn, and the Siege/Cather tiles, none of which stack with like tiles.

That's the best argument I've heard. Good enough for a footnote in the CAR, IMHO.

[CKorfmann]

That's the best argument I've heard. Good enough for a footnote in the CAR, IMHO.

Wow, that would be cool!  Thanks.

[Carcking]

In reality... for the 99% of the population that does play it as a pig herd, we have to make up a rule and the precedent, I believe, is set by other tiles that augment scoring such as the Cathedral, the Inn, and the Siege/Cather tiles, none of which stack with like tiles.

We've got to be careful to look at all possibilities though. You have to consider that certain items like pennants and trade goods do stack - and, importantly - cities stack on farms. I say importantly, because the affect on cities on farms is at the heart of the discussion.

I actually don't know yet if I have an opinion either way...just throwing it out there.

[CKorfmann]

But pennents happen multiple times throughout the game with the express purpose of giving +1 each time, not like a pig farm at all really.  I think they are more related to Cathedrals.  It seems to me the intention was to give the farm a boost like Inns and Cathedrals did for roads and cities.

[Scott]

Indeed, it's the mechanic that counts. Trade goods have a completely different scoring mechanic. The pig farm tile is exactly like a cathedral or inn tile (+1 non-stacking bonus to each tile of the feature being scored). Since farms are scored per city instead of per tile, and the pig farm gives a +1 bonus per city, to keep in line with inns and cathedrals it should be a non-stacking bonus.

Pennants are an interesting phenomenon. They make the tile more valuable, though the added value is in the pennant itself. The city segment is still counted as being worth 2 points, though it could be argued that's just to make the math easier. The "bonus" is only on the individual tile, not the entire city, which makes me inclined to say that it's not really a bonus at all, but a separate feature being scored. I'm digressing slightly from the original topic here, but I'm not aware of any similar feature for roads or farms unless there's a fan-made expansion I'm not aware of which does. If not, maybe there's an opportunity here...

[CKorfmann]

but I'm not aware of any similar feature for roads or farms unless there's a fan-made expansion I'm not aware of which does. If not, maybe there's an opportunity here...

meepleater's Wells does exactly that for roads.  +1 or every road segment that has a well next to it.  It has been adapted into several other fanspansions as well.

[Carcking]

But pennents happen multiple times throughout the game with the express purpose of giving +1 each time, not like a pig farm at all really.  I think they are more related to Cathedrals.  It seems to me the intention was to give the farm a boost like Inns and Cathedrals did for roads and cities.

I'm seeing it now - the difference. The Inn and Cathedral are features that have no value in themselves - but add value to the components of the feature. Unlike the Pennant which has its own value and does not affect other components of the feature (as Scott said, almost a feature unto itself). In that case multiple Pig Herds are like Inns and Cathedrals and should not stack. That seems perfectly clear to me now.

Thanks CK!

Remember that you could play with two River II expansions and have two recognized Pig Herds in the game - that is, you don't have to have the questionable GQ11 tile in the game to to have a stacking situation.

Here are some intriguing questions though:
1. Does the T&B Pig stack with Pig Herds? Are they technically different or the same? Are Inns and Wells the same?
2. If a Farm with Pig or Pig Herd is not finished at the end of the game does it score zero points? A "finished" farm being defined as completely surround by features (roads, cities, river, something other than open edge of board - such that it cannot be expanded further).

[CKorfmann]

No problem. 

Remember that you could play with two River II expansions and have two recognized Pig Herds in the game...

I had not considered that, but you are correct.  Interestingly for me, when I bought the Count I had an extra tile in the box, the GQ11 pig herd, so I have 3 now. 

Here are some intriguing questions though:
1. Does the T&B Pig stack with Pig Herds? Are they technically different or the same? Are Inns and Wells the same?

Yes, they absolutely do stack with one another because they are altogether different game features.  As for Inns and Wells, it's the same fundamental issue.  A well is it's own feature so to speak, like Scott suggested, similar to pennants.  They give a +1 bonus to the particular tile they are on.  The Inn, however, doubles the value of the entire complete road, or renders it worthless if incomplete. 

2. If a Farm with Pig or Pig Herd is not finished at the end of the game does it score zero points? A "finished" farm being defined as completely surround by features (roads, cities, river, something other than open edge of board - such that it cannot be expanded further).

No, farms are most often unfinished.  If that were the case, no one would score for a farm.  Farms are always considered complete at the end of the game regardless of open edges.  As a side note though, in my house rules I will allow a farmer to score if the farm is surrounded by boundaries and all cities are complete.  In other words, if the end game score for that farmer could not possibly change.  I can see where that might get sticky though with follower stewardship so I might have to revisit that house rule.