PIG / Farm Scoring

[aeoliner]

Actually it was through one of the CARs or rule link i found on CarcCent that said the GQ11 is not a pig herd it is just a four way farm tile similar to a four way city.

[Whaleyland]

Indeed. I never said it was a pig herd. In fact, it is a pig and cow herd, which oddly scores nothing. Just remember, there is no OFFICIAL rulings at all concerning the Games Quarterly Expansion since it was not released in Germany or by Rio Grande and Games Quarterly Magazine closed up without issuing any of their own rulings. Thus, it is just a random extra tiles expansion.

[Tobias]

A tile with a pig herd on it is a pig herd tile. I do not know why some people have a hard time realising that. Granted, there are fewer pigs in the GQ11 tile than in River II, but the shed (pig house, whatever it is called in English) is exactly the same graphics. On the GQ11 tile there are also two animals (cows?), and on the River II tile there is an extra house.

Point is: it is a pig herd, with a pig house. And since the tile has a pig herd it is a pig herd tile.

Maybe I should collect this question in its own thread ...

[aeoliner]

Granted, there are fewer pigs in the GQ11 tile than in River II, but the shed (pig house, whatever it is called in English) is exactly the sme graphics. On the GQ11 tile there are also two animals (cows?), and on the River II tile there is an extra house.

You just stated how the GQ11 tile is different from the River II, the River II tile has been explicitly defined as a Pig Heard but as you stated the GQ11 tile is different in several critical ways from the defined River II tile that they are clearly two different functions. the River II functions as a pig heard while the GQ11 tile functions as a field tile and nothing more. Cows aren't pigs.

[Tobias]

You just stated how the GQ11 tile is different from the River II, the River II tile has been explicitly defined as a Pig Heard but as you stated the GQ11 tile is different in several critical ways from the defined River II tile that they are clearly two different functions. the River II functions as a pig heard while the GQ11 tile functions as a field tile and nothing more. Cows aren't pigs.

No. I did not. There is no "critical" difference between the tiles. They both have a pig herd. They both have sheds (pig houses). I would wager a guess that you do not dismiss all other tiles with adornments on them. Just because there are several elements on a tile does not mean that all other elements become void. Many other tile functions has different graphics and different "misc stuff" on them. Is a road not a road because there is a little house on the same tile? Ridiculous!

A tile with a pig herd on it is obviously a pig herd tile. What else would it be?

[aeoliner]

The difference is that the differences concerning the GQ11 tile are not "misc stuff" because it is the only stuff. If you are saying that these are "misc stuff" then it must be concluded that the GQ11 tile is just a Field tile with "misc stuff" on it. Therefore ther is no bonus farm scoring that the pig farm gets because the pig farm is not "misc stuff"

[loganmann1]

One thing I love about the game is that you can add or subtract rules as you like.  If I want to play with a builder, but not the rest of the t&b expansion you can.  If you want to play the catapult tiles but use the fan made jester and minstrel rules you can.  If you want the GQ11 FFFF tile to be a pig herd it is.  If you don't want to you don't.

I love the variety this game offers that lets everyone tailor it to their own preferences. 

I salute the fan mades and house rules

[Dagou]

According to the GQ11 expansion text in the Carc:

"It should be noted that, officially, the ffff tile is not a pig-herd tile (see The River II for more details). I
have been informed by John Sweeney that this has been confirmed by Jay Tummelson of Rio
Grande Games, the producer of this expansion. It may be possible to use the tile as if it were a
pig-herd tile, but this would be a house rule, rather than an official rule."

Note: we use the tile as a pig heard tile.

[djdahmer]

According to the GQ11 expansion text in the Carc:

"It should be noted that, officially, the ffff tile is not a pig-herd tile (see The River II for more details). I
have been informed by John Sweeney that this has been confirmed by Jay Tummelson of Rio
Grande Games, the producer of this expansion. It may be possible to use the tile as if it were a
pig-herd tile, but this would be a house rule, rather than an official rule."

Note: we use the tile as a pig heard tile.

That was my understanding as well. However, just because it isn't officially a pig herd tile there's no reason not to have a house rule that says that it is one.

Whichever way you want to play it, it's definitely not worth getting into arguments over. After all, it is only one tile...

[Tobias]

The difference is that the differences concerning the GQ11 tile are not "misc stuff" because it is the only stuff. If you are saying that these are "misc stuff" then it must be concluded that the GQ11 tile is just a Field tile with "misc stuff" on it. Therefore ther is no bonus farm scoring that the pig farm gets because the pig farm is not "misc stuff"

No, it is not the only "stuff". There is also a pig herd. Just as there are roads, and roads with a little house. Noöne would consider the road not a road just becuase there is also a house on the same tile as the road. But you consider the pig herd not a pig herd becuase there are also cows.

According to the GQ11 expansion text in the Carc:

"It should be noted that, officially, the ffff tile is not a pig-herd tile (see The River II for more details). I
have been informed by John Sweeney that this has been confirmed by Jay Tummelson of Rio
Grande Games, the producer of this expansion. It may be possible to use the tile as if it were a
pig-herd tile, but this would be a house rule, rather than an official rule."

Added afterwards, without thought. This is Jay's house rule. Rio Grande Games did not publish this, so why should Jay be the official judge about something he did not create? We can as well ask Martin Wallace what he thinks.

That was my understanding as well. However, just because it isn't officially a pig herd tile there's no reason not to have a house rule that says that it is one.

Whichever way you want to play it, it's definitely not worth getting into arguments over. After all, it is only one tile...

It is apparantly worth arguing that a pig herd tile is not a pig herd tile because someone who did not create it said so. The reason I argue is because I think it is a grand example of rule lawyers gone wrong. It is totally obvious to every sensible person that it is a pig herd, and that makes the tile a pig herd tile. It is a great example of when authorities are wrong, and yet people defend them. If you look at the tile, you will see a pig herd. Just as if you look at any other tile you will see its feature. Arguing that it is not a pig herd because there are also cows (for example) is not only reaching, it also borders on the obstinate.

[Dagou]

If Jay Tummelson of Rio Grande Games is the producer of this expansion, why coudn't he be the offical source for the rules?

As I wrote, we play that it's a pig heard tile regardless of what anybody says.

[Tobias]

No rules were included with the GQ11-expansion. The rule saying that the pig herd tile is not a pig herd tile was added afterwards. The reason someone even had to ask the question is the kind of "rule lawyerism" I can neither understand nor bear.

What else would a tile with a pig herd be but a pig herd tile?

[djdahmer]

No rules were included with the GQ11-expansion. The rule saying that the pig herd tile is not a pig herd tile was added afterwards. The reason someone even had to ask the question is the kind of "rule lawyerism" I can neither understand nor bear.

You mention disliking "rule lawyerism" yet seem intent on doing the same thing yourself. I really don't understand why it's such a big issue - after all it's such an easy thing to agree before the start of a game whether it counts as a pig tile or not, regardless of whether there's an official ruling or not (and regardless of what that ruling is). We do it all the time when we mix & match expansions or parts of expansions.

What else would a tile with a pig herd be but a pig herd tile?

Isn't that a bit like saying a pig flies because pigs fly? 

[Tobias]

You mention disliking "rule lawyerism" yet seem intent on doing the same thing yourself. I really don't understand why it's such a big issue - after all it's such an easy thing to agree before the start of a game whether it counts as a pig tile or not, regardless of whether there's an official ruling or not (and regardless of what that ruling is). We do it all the time when we mix & match expansions or parts of expansions.

No, no no no! I dislike this level of rule lawyerism, where you let logic just fly out the window! A game needs its rules, no question about that. And I agree: it is easy to agree upon beforehand.

The thing I take issue with is that this defies everything logical end sensible. We have a tile with a pig herd that does not count as a pig herd, becuase ... well, um ... there are also cows! And ... well, it is not exactly the same tile as the other pig herd tiles! If I were to argue that a road tile is not a road tile because it is also carrying a little house as adornement everyone would just shake their head (I hope). Do you remember the question about the river and if they ended farms or not? This is the same thing. In that case it was even more absurd thoguh – a rather fun excersise, but if you actually are serious in that regard, well, then you have taken it way too far.

Isn't that a bit like saying a pig flies because pigs fly? 

I do not understand this analogy. There is some proverbial useage of "flying pigs" in English. Is that what you mean?

[aeoliner]

And ... well, it is not exactly the same tile as the other pig herd tiles!

You mean there are multiple pig heard tiles? I am pretty sure that the only pig heard tile was in the River II. Therefore the River II tile is the precedent on pig heard tile. Plus as to counter your road example, the base set rules of Carcassonne explicitly state that the road tiles may contain decorative accents, such as your afore mentioned houses, and have no effect on the tile.