Natural Disasters

[loganmann1]

I don't know if this expansion is still/currently being worked on but one great natural disaster thats already incorporated into the game would be volcanic eruption.  Maybe a special "Pompeii" (sp?) volcano tile that without playing P&D would cause some significant level of damage around it but if your are playing with P&D the rules change such that it alone does less damage but it causes all volcanoes in play to erupt and do damage wherever they are.

I think the flood idea with replacing the 3x3 tile is cool but it would end up graphically mismatching.  Perhaps it could be given a border similar to an abbey showing it fits anywhere but (1) all features connecting to it score less then usual but are considered complete on that side, (2) all features remain incomplete so all meeples are "trapped" due to flooding, (3) same condition as 1 but allow and escape like the siege can be escaped through neighboring cloisters.

I'd like to see the tornado as a piece of wood instead of a tile.  Not sure how to design that, but it would act similar to the dragon, but instead of removing meeple, it would carry one.  Then when it moved to a tile with another meeple on it, then that meeple is exchanged with the one in the tornado.  If the exchange makes no sense(like putting a pig on the road in place of a thief), then that meeple is returned to their owners supply.  I'm not sure if keeping the movement the same as the dragon would out as well though.

I also really like the Tornado piece idea.  Maybe there could be tiles that introduce prevailing winds and it moves that direction.  I could be built onto tiles like in Oceans or maybe be drawn similar to the mechanic in Barbarian Hordes.

[CKorfmann]

Well, it's not closed as such, but it is up for vote for the collaboration of the month. 

[CKorfmann]

So this is one of two we have so far for December.  Let's see what we can do with it.  Here are the ideas that have been suggested so far.  Please forgive me if I've left one out. 

• 6-12 tiles
• Possibly including the Drought and Pestilance expansion
• Possibly including the Forest Fire tile
• A Meteor tile
• Some sort of Eclipse tile
• A Flood tile (or tiles, or large tile)
• An Earthquake tile
• A Swarm of Locusts tile
• A Tornado tile (or meeple)
• A Hurricane tile (similar to The Ocean - Turbulent Waters)

So let's talk about it.

[loganmann1]

I don't know if it’s one for consideration or not but I think taking advantage of the already existent volcanoes for a volcanic eruption disaster could be cool. A tile that marks an eruption and all volcanoes do some form of damage to either the surrounding features or meeples. Or that could be a variation if using P&D and there could be stand alone eruption tile.

Earlier in the thread was mention of the ten plagues.  Wikipedia lists them concisely as follows with me filling in possible adaptations of the ideas CKormann listed that could be re themed to fit:

(Exodus 7:14–25) water turned to blood killing all fish and other water life.   [possibly adapt the flood idea to this theme]
(Exodus 8:1–8:15) amphibians (commonly believed to be frogs) [maybe an adaptation of Jabberwocky’s Oxbow idea]
(Exodus 8:16–19) lice or gnats [something affecting meeples maybe]
(Exodus 8:20–30) beasts or flies [maybe an adaptation of what drought does to fit this theme?]
(Exodus 9:1–7) disease on livestock [lose a pig and/or negate pig farms]
(Exodus 9:8–12) unhealable boils [maybe something like Quarantine…or is that Pestilence already?]
(Exodus 9:13–35) hail mixed with fire [a Meteor tile and/or an eruption]
(Exodus 10:1–20) locusts [Swarm of locusts tile hurting farmers]
(Exodus 10:21–29) darkness [some sort of Eclipse tile]
(Exodus 11:1–12:36) death of the first-born of all Egyptian families. (also death of every camel) [lose a meeple…maybe the most potentially valuable because it’s the “first-born” to whom goes all the inheritance]

That’s just a thought it we went with 10 plagues.  If we did do that theme though…what if there were 10 tiles with a plague icon.  When the first is drawn and played…with the player having a chance to place on any features, then the first plague goes into effect.  Plagues involving tiles would have those set aside to use when needed and then some plagues might simply be an effect on everyone like the death of the first born idea of everyone loses a meeple.

So the ten plagues would all hit in order but you never know just when.  They could be the first ten tiles played or the last.

Also, if this 10 plagues theme were to be used I think there should be a way for the players to escape it through showing their faith somehow much like lambs blood on the door frame saved the Israelites from losing their firstborn.  Maybe as long as a player has 2 monks in play (cloister, abbey, whatever) they are safe or something like that.  Hmmm…after typing it out I do see that this would require all the disasters to be 1 time influences to be avoided or a lot of monks on unfinished cloisters.

Well this is all just brainstorming and throwing out ideas anyway. Sorry its so long.

[Whaleyland]

(Exodus 7:14–25) water turned to blood killing all fish and other water life.   [possibly adapt the flood idea to this theme]
(Exodus 8:1–8:15) amphibians (commonly believed to be frogs) [maybe an adaptation of Jabberwocky’s Oxbow idea]
(Exodus 8:16–19) lice or gnats [something affecting meeples maybe]
(Exodus 8:20–30) beasts or flies [maybe an adaptation of what drought does to fit this theme?]
(Exodus 9:1–7) disease on livestock [lose a pig and/or negate pig farms]
(Exodus 9:8–12) unhealable boils [maybe something like Quarantine…or is that Pestilence already?]
(Exodus 9:13–35) hail mixed with fire [a Meteor tile and/or an eruption]
(Exodus 10:1–20) locusts [Swarm of locusts tile hurting farmers]
(Exodus 10:21–29) darkness [some sort of Eclipse tile]
(Exodus 11:1–12:36) death of the first-born of all Egyptian families. (also death of every camel) [lose a meeple…maybe the most potentially valuable because it’s the “first-born” to whom goes all the inheritance]

I'm not sure of the viability of having the 10 Plagues of Egypt effect Carcassonne, but if we go with this or something similar, I have a few ideas. First, I think that the plague should only effect the player who draws the tile but there should be no protection for them. That means that when a player draws a Plague/Disaster tile, they must place it on their own feature, if possible. Now, based on your list:

• Bloody river would be hard to do without requiring one of the River expansions. Penalties for fields are already noted below for other plagues, so I think the bloody river should effect roads (i.e., trade). The bloody river would be more like a bloody pond and negate an entire road for the player but not end the road (i.e., the follower would have to stay on it unless by placing the tile it completed the road).
  
• Frogs should be similar to the above except it should act as the end of a road with frogs all over it, thereby blocking the end. In other words, your follower is permanently trapped on that road.
• Gnats should force a player to remove a Farmer and return it to their supply (you can't work if gnats are attacking you, after all!).
• Flies should attack a Knight and force the player to return one to their supply.
• Death of livestock, in lieu of a better option, should force the player to subtract some amount from their score; I'd recommend 10 points. Without livestock, a major producer of food which supports farmers, cities, cloisters, and travelers on roads, I think people would die off. Not that the other plagues didn't do this too or anything, but vanilla carc has no livestock to kill.
  
• Boils should reduce the value of a city by 1.
• Firestorm should be a tile that goes on the board and blocks all sides without completing adjacent features (an anti-abbey).
• Locusts should reduce the value of a field by 1/city.
• Darkness should force a player to return to his/her supply all monks/heretics since religious figures are very superstitious.
• Death of the Firstborn should remove one meeple from a players supply or board PERMANENTLY (remove it from the game).

As with most expansion ideas, I strongly urge you to try and use only tiles from the base game for bonuses/penalties. Requiring players to use your expansion with an official expansion just for the benefit of one specific action is really annoying (at least to me). I think we could think of 10 plague ideas without having to resort to tiles from official/unofficial expansions.

[loganmann1]

As with most expansion ideas, I strongly urge you to try and use only tiles from the base game for bonuses/penalties. Requiring players to use your expansion with an official expansion just for the benefit of one specific action is really annoying (at least to me). I think we could think of 10 plague ideas without having to resort to tiles from official/unofficial expansions.

Thats a good point. I agree with keeping it to non expansion specific tiles.  Just brainstorming. 

[CKorfmann]

While I'm very much on board with a 10 plagues expansion.  I think it would be better used with the Ark version.  We had discussed that in the Ark thread and I think that where it belongs.  Perhaps we can persue that idea when we finish this one. 

That said, I think we should stick to the ideas we've mentioned so far plus whatever we come up with that's new.  Good job though coming up with all that info.  It won't be wasted!  :-]

[Scott]

I agree to leave the 10 plagues for AotC.

[loganmann1]

I agree to leave the 10 plagues for AotC.

I'm fine with that.  I forget about the spinoffs since I don't have any.

[gunpowdertea]

First, I think that the plague should only effect the player who draws the tile but there should be no protection for them. That means that when a player draws a Plague/Disaster tile, they must place it on their own feature, if possible.

If the disaster only affects the player who drew it then perhaps for each disaster there should be at least the chance of protection. Just my opinion but I wouldn't really want to use an expansion that only introduced negative consequences to gameplay, unless players can profit from anothers misfortune *rubs hands together and cackles maniacally*  .

For example if a player draws a flood, perhaps other players could assist him to combat it, so maybe they could give him some 'sandbag tokens' in their colour or something and then whoever has assisted others in distress the most would get rewarded at the end of the game. But also tailor it so players have to strategise whether or not they want to assist others because they might need the tokens themselves if they draw a flood. Or something like that. But anyway I think I'd prefer something that encouraged cooperation rather than just dealt damage to an individual. There should be some benefit in there for someone, otherwise it'd just be disheartening to play with in my opinion.

[CKorfmann]

I'm not sure I like they tile only effecting the one who draws it.  That's not so with the Drought and Pestilence.  i think we should stay with that "mechanic theme."

[Whaleyland]

I'm not sure I like they tile only effecting the one who draws it.  That's not so with the Drought and Pestilence.  i think we should stay with that "mechanic theme."

Well that works too. Alternatively perhaps everyone except the person who draws the tile is affected. Although since they are tiles for plagues, I'd assume that they would be placed meaning that they could then affect whoever is adjacent to the placed tile.

I agree that the expansion as a whole should go with AotC but I think at least some of the plagues are natural disasters in themselves and should be included. Most of the plagues of Egypt have been hypothetically linked to the eruption of Mt. Thera in the Aegean Sea. Regardless of if the plagues actually occurred, I think that we could still use some of the plagues as just natural disasters. Gnats and eclipses and livestock deaths and the black death have all happened in Europe outside of a divine plague.

[Gwommy]

• 10 Plagues

I really like this idea. Although I like the idea that there is the same plague icon on each tile and that the plagues happen in a specific order when each plague tile is drawn.  And I was also thinking about having effects of the plague work similar to the Wheel of Fortune where it affects everyone.  This plague everyone has to remove a knight from a city, the next plague everyone removes a pig, just for a couple examples.  But if this is better suited for AotC, then that's fine.  I'll have to see if I can find the AotC thread through, because I don't think I've seen that.

So to get back on track with the suggestions listed by CKorfmann:

• 6-12 tiles

As long as there aren't too many rules, I'd say 12 is a good number.

• Possibly including the Drought and Pestilance expansion

Although I do think Natural Disasters should be its own expansion, these tiles do seem to fit quite well.

• Possibly including the Forest Fire tile

I'm against this one, especially since it was mentioned earlier to try not to include tile specific happenings from other expansions, so it should definitely not include tiles where you HAVE to use tiles from fan-based expansions, especially the large expansions like Forest.

• A Meteor tile

A meteor seems quite random. Granted other things have been suggested for this tile, here's my idea:
Use a tile that has a meteor symbol on.  Who ever draws this tile may place it as normal, but also remove a follower off the board from the player in first place and return it to their supply.

• Some sort of Eclipse tile

I like the idea of everyone having to remove a monk or heretic.

• A Flood tile (or tiles, or large tile)

I like the idea of it starting as 1x1, and then later replace it with 3x3.  I'd skip having a 2x2 tile.

• An Earthquake tile

Although putting a gap in the board would be awesome, it would be too much work to physically do. I'd imagine it'd also cause many already completed features to become unfinished again, and it'd be too easy to re-score a ton of points with just a single tile.  Since earthquake tend to be more sufficient at destroying towns, perhaps everyone having to remove a knight would be more appropriate.

• A Swarm of Locusts tile

Perhaps locusts can be like a princess tile except have it work for the farmers.

• A Tornado tile (or meeple)

I still like my orginal idea of using this as a meeple, or a wooden disc would probably work the best.  And having it move similar to a dragon, except it transfers meeples to different sections rather than eating them.

• A Hurricane tile (similar to The Ocean - Turbulent Waters)

I vote against a hurricane tile.  There are no oceans or large bodies of water around that are big enough to create a hurricane.

[CKorfmann]

I'll have to see if I can find the AotC thread through, because I don't think I've seen that.

HERE you go.

• Possibly including the Drought and Pestilance expansion

Although I do think Natural Disasters should be its own expansion, these tiles do seem to fit quite well.

That was my inspiration for the idea.  I thought it "natural" that they be included.  :-]  I'm flexible though.

• Possibly including the Forest Fire tile

I'm against this one, especially since it was mentioned earlier to try not to include tile specific happenings from other expansions, so it should definitely not include tiles where you HAVE to use tiles from fan-based expansions, especially the large expansions like Forest.

I thought this one would be a given as well, but I see why you might not want to include it.  Perhaps we can make a 15 tile set and save the last three for expansion features such as the Forest Fire.  I think JPutt did something similar to this with the Fortune Teller.  He had 6 regular tiles and two extra with forest and mountain features.  Would using the Flood tile on the River be considered the same way though?

• An Earthquake tile

...and it'd be too easy to re-score a ton of points with just a single tile.

I hadn't thought of the possibility.  At the very least, I can see it becoming a project trying to avoid the issue.

• A Tornado tile (or meeple)

• A Hurricane tile (similar to The Ocean - Turbulent Waters)

I vote against a hurricane tile.  There are no oceans or large bodies of water around that are big enough to create a hurricane.

I think I'm with you on the Hurricane thing.  Not a likely occurance in this part of the world.  Perhaps we could use something like it for the Tornado tile.  I like the idea of the tornado carrying a meeple and depositing it elsewhere. 

As much as I like the idea of a sequential series of plagues, I still think it belongs with the AotC spin-off.  My original idea for the Natural Disasters was someting much more random.  However, I'm flexible if there is a concensus.

[loganmann1]

• A Flood tile (or tiles, or large tile)

I like the idea of it starting as 1x1, and then later replace it with 3x3.  I'd skip having a 2x2 tile.

I agree with skipping the 2x2 tile.  My concern with this one is the outside edge of the flood tile.  Would it be bordered like an abbey to aleviate the problems of features matching up?  And then would you say any feature dead ending into it is complete like an abbey or incomplete and people are trapped by the flood.  I kind of like that idea but that makes this becomes really powerful considering it also knocked out whatever meeples and features were in the flooded 3x3 area.