Wizards and Witches

[JPutt927]

I've been secretly working on a new expansion for a couple of weeks now. I've finally made it how I envisioned, and I'm ready to consider it done. So without further ado, here it is...my latest expansion, Wizards and Witches. Be warned, even though it may only be two new tiles...I'd consider it pretty complex. Let me know if you have any questions...  

Wizards and Witches Rules - http://www.mediafire.com/?mdnjingj3yt

Wizards and Witches Tiles and Tokens - http://www.mediafire.com/?2m3t3numwtr

[Gantry]

Wow that does look very involved, and I get a nod too! 

[Bubbasco]

Awesome... I can't wait to play with these!

[Novelty]

Hmm...

Deploying/Retrieving a witch or a wizard on subsequent turn takes the place of drawing a tile.  I presume you can't use your abbey after that as well.  A footnote might be needed there.

Meeple is a term made by fans.  The official rules use "follower" (or the appropriate name, e.g. pig) instead of meeple.  That might have to be changed.

Church in the second example should be cloister (for both witch and wizard).  It occurs in a couple of other places as well throughout the document as well.  Shouldn't the 8 tiles surrounding the cloister score points as well?  The rules seem to indicate that this is so and might need a footnote or a comment if it's not.

Also the numbering is a bit off the usual.  From the CAR:
1. = Play the tile
2. = Deploy a follower
3. = Score
Based on that, the retrieving should be a 2. and the Impact on scoring should be 3.s.

With the witch, what happens if the "structure" scores less points that the reduction caused by the witch?  Let's say I have a 4 tile road, all in Zone 5.  When completed, that road normally scores 4 points, but no thanks to the witch, I have to deduct 20 points from it.  Will the player score no points for the completion of the road, or will he/she lose 16 points?

You've used the term "structure" in quite a few places in the document.  It would be good to have a footnote to define what exactly are structures, and what it excludes.

If you are using the term "moving the wood" you will have to define what it is as a footnote.  Personally I would usually replace "moving the wood" with  "deploying a follower, or any other actions that are carried out instead of deploying a follower" which makes it clearer.

I wonder what are "you friend's Josh and Danny".  I presume you mean "my friends Josh and Danny"?  Also, the rules document is loosely based on the CAR, which is why we credit Matt on every expansion (he's missing from this).

There needs to be a statement somewhere that you can't deploy followers from the city of carcassonne to the tile.  Also, what would happen if the fairy is on the tile with the witcher/wizards?  Is that even allowed?

Comment: I'm slightly concerned about the power "escalation" of this expansion.  There's no mentioned about how it interacts with the Noblemen, but if a player places 3 noblemen on the tile (since it's a follower with a strength of +3), then it's immediately a +9/-10 zone around the wizard/witch.  I've no idea what is the best way to prevent it from getting out of hand, but here are some suggestions that probably will have to be playtested (and maybe a combination might be needed):

1. State that only normal and large followers can be placed on the witch/wizard
2. Placing more follower increases the "zone" but not the total, i.e. each tile in the affected will be worth +1/-2 (or +2/-3)
3. Limiting the zone to a specific number (e.g. max range is 5?)
4. Limiting the maximum bonus/damage.  The bonus should add no more than maybe 10 and the damage should not be less than the total point for the feature scored?

Anyways, adding this to the Development list.

Edit: Can I request that when playing with the Wizard of Oz expansion, the player that draws and plays the Oz City tile may choose instead to deploy to the Wizard (if he owns the tile) instead of deploying a follower.  Likewise, the player who draws the tile with the witch under the house may choose to remove a witch instead of deploying a follower?

[JPutt927]

Hmmm. You certainly know how to take the wind out of someone's sails. I do understand that you are certainly just trying to help, but it might be necessary to work on your relaying of what you personally would like to see changed. Maybe this is just my opinion, but it can be a little insulting to get a list of a dozen things that you don't agree with at all.  I have put a considerable amount of time into this expansion, so that may be what's lending to this reaction, but the fact is...this IS a fan-made expansion...so it may be necessary to let a couple of the slightest nit-picks go. However, I will oblige, and I will make a few changes. I apologize for my rant, it's just something I felt that needed to be said.

[Scott]

I know exactly how you feel. Most of what Novelty is suggesting is changes in word choice to better match the wording of the CAR. This will help to avoid ambiguity or confusion among people who are not as familiar with the unofficial terminology. Some of the other changes pertain to interaction with other fan-made expansions. You don't have to care about those if you don't want to. The number of fan-made expansions is pretty enormous compared to a year ago. I haven't crunched the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if we're getting close to doubling the number that existed before we started.

It's when he suggests to completely change how your expansion works that you can be justifiably upset.

[Novelty]

I apologize if I have hurt your feelings and took the winds out of your sails (metaphorically speaking, although that would make a good title for an Ocean expansion).  I was only trying to improve the idea, and if I came across as harsh, that was not my intent, so I'm sorry.

[JPutt927]

Apology accepted. Moving on...I need to determine what is the best route to take in regards to clarifying the rules for the massive number of fan-made expansions. As you can see, I attempted to make note of several of them (particularly the ones in which I am familiar with).  However, as Scott mentioned, there really are a large number of them, and I know I have neglected to include mention of many of the one's I really don't know much about. Is it worth trying to sort out how each and every one might be included?...or is that a can of worms better left unopened?

Shouldn't the 8 tiles surrounding the cloister score points as well?  The rules seem to indicate that this is so and might need a footnote or a comment if it's not.

This is another thing I've struggled with. My determination was that a cloister will NOT earn bonus points for all the surrounding tiles...as that would provide what I felt was too high of a bonus for a completed cloister or shrine.  Maybe a statement along the lines of..."Only a tile containing the actual object that is trying to be completed will receive the Wizard or Witch bonuses. Such is the case with a cloister only being awarded the bonus points for the tile containing the cloister, and not the tiles surrounding it."?

Furthermore, if and when defining the term "structure", I once again encounter the problem of whether or not to include features from other, fan-made expansions. Is there a better word that could be used that would be clear, and require no further clarification...and would naturally encompass all appropriate things from additional expansions?

It's so easy knowing exactly how I want the expansion to work...but getting all of that into clear and concise words is a whole different story.

[CKorfmann]

It's so easy knowing exactly how I want the expansion to work...but getting all of that into clear and concise words is a whole different story.

Boy, that's the truth!  I had a lot of trouble in that regard with The Missionary.

[Novelty]

Is it worth trying to sort out how each and every one might be included?...or is that a can of worms better left unopened?

You don't have to include each and every one of them.  What you have is good enough.

"Only a tile containing the actual object that is trying to be completed will receive the Wizard or Witch bonuses. Such is the case with a cloister only being awarded the bonus points for the tile containing the cloister, and not the tiles surrounding it."

I think this statement should be sufficient.  This is general enough to allow the player to interpret how it is to interact with the other expansions.

[JPutt927]

I've updated the rules. I tried to fix many of the suggestions that were made. I also decided it would indeed be best to cap the maximum bonuses and damages at +/-5 each. I think this will work well. Let me know if there are any other minor changes that you think need to be made.

[CKorfmann]

Again, sorry for the late post.  I'm still getting caught up.  The firewall at my work will not allow me to view anything from mediafire or similar file-sharing sites.

I have a few comments/questions... In the Seasons expansion, you state that negative points will be subtracted from the total score.  Is the same true for the effects of the Witch(es)?  If I have a small three tile city that only earns me 6 points, but I'm supposed to loose 15, what happens?

Regarding Witch Potions, I'm not sure what you mean by witch value.  Are you saying that if I win a challenge and depose 3 witches and then place my own witch, than I would get 4 tokens?  Maybe I'm missing it altogether.  I was also a little confused by the second sentence in the Using a Witch Potion section.

In Final Scoring you say,

The player with the most witch potions at the end of the game will LOSE 10 points. This applies even if the player with the most potions is the one who originally attained them during the game.

I thought they could only be given once.  I guess I don't understand how the witch player could get them back.

I love these tiles!!!  I think they are excellent.  I do really like this expansion as well.  I'm curious what your thoughts would be on interacting with the Missionary expansion. 

[JPutt927]

Quite alright on the late post, don't you worry. Now, on to answering some questions!

It IS possible to lose points via the witch. If you had a 6 point city, but the curse was -15 points...you will lose 9 points. It's stated somewhere in the rules (I know that thing is very very large, so it'd be easy to miss!).

In regards to the witch value. If you had 3 witches on the tile, you would have received 3 of the witch potions. If you then lost the challenge and another player eventually ends up placing 1 witch on the tile for their first, they will receive 1 witch potion. That is the first time they have reached the witch value of 1...so they will receive a potion, even though a previous player has already received a potion for the witch value of 1 witch. One token may be earned per player per total witches deployed. I can understand your confusion...that was a mouthful to explain! I hope I made it at least somewhat more clear!

Now, in regards to the final scoring question. You're right, a potion can only be used once, and therefore a player cannot get a potion back after using it. What that statement means is that if a player who receives the potions never ends up using them...they can still lose the points in the end if they are holding the most potions.

Thanks for the compliments!...and I hope I was able to help with the questions. I'll have to get back to you on the Missionary interaction, as I have yet to familiarize myself with it. I've been so busy making tiles!

[CKorfmann]

It IS possible to lose points via the witch. If you had a 6 point city, but the curse was -15 points...you will lose 9 points. It's stated somewhere in the rules (I know that thing is very very large, so it'd be easy to miss!).

I thought so, but I wanted to make sure.

...that was a mouthful to explain! I hope I made it at least somewhat more clear!

Yeah, I think I get it now.

What that statement means is that if a player who receives the potions never ends up using them...they can still lose the points in the end if they are holding the most potions.

Ahhh, now I understand.  That's clever.

Thanks for the compliments!

My pleasure.

I'll have to get back to you on the Missionary interaction, as I have yet to familiarize myself with it.

Perhaps I'll post my suggestions.

Edit:
I would suggest that a single Wizard or Witch would be eligible for conversion by the Missionary.  Multiples would make any/all of them ineligible.