Barn/Pig/Farmer Question

[csmountain]

One more rule clarification question:

-Derek has a farmer already down on the game board. He plays a tile to connect his farmer
to an area with a barn. On that play he lays the pig thus claiming double points for the immediately
scored farmer. He says this is a legitimate move.

-Knowlton says that the pig must already be down for Derek to lay claim to the double points.

-In a recent game Derek played in this fashion two plays in a row earning 40 points (10 completed cities
in the barn land w/ the farmer and pig that were immediately scored and then immediately returned to
his stash).

So who is correct, Derek or Knowlton?


Thanks!

[Joff]

I believe Derek is correct, but in this case he would only score 2 points in connecting his farmer to the field with the barn in and then laying his pig.

Remember the order of play in normal circumstances is: lay tile, move 'wood' then score. So in this case laying the tile which joins Dereks farmer to the field containing the barn is legal. At this point (move 'wood') Derek has fulfilled the conditions to play his pig (having his farmer in the field). Now he scores (as farmers cannot remain in a field where there is a barn): for adjoining his farmer into a field containing a barn, he scores 1 point for every complete city contained in the field, but with the pig it is 2 points for every completed city within the field.

Knowlton is incorrect in saying that the pig must be already down to make the claim. The pig is laid down to the tile that adjoins his farmer into the field containing the barn, so in one sense it is already down before point scoring takes place..

So Derek is absolutely right, this is a legitimate move

[wicke]

Of course Knowlton is correct.
You cannot place the pig (or any farmer) on a farm with a barn.
That rule is of course valid even when you place a tile that connects the farm.
The pig needs to be on a farm first, before you connect it to a barn. Then you get the extra point for each city.

[Joff]

You cannot place the pig (or any farmer) on a farm with a barn.
That rule is of course valid even when you place a tile that connects the farm.
The pig needs to be on a farm first, before you connect it to a barn. Then you get the extra point for each city.

I disagree and believe this is incorrect.

According to the CAR (ver 4.1):

(page 42): It is only a farmer that cannot be placed on a field containing a barn. The rule does not actually apply to the pig, which is not a farmer (page 23, footnote 44 (a farmer is a follower)).

(page 22): The pig can be placed on fields that already have farmers or other pigs in them.

Since there is no prohibition of using the pig in a field containing a barn, and the farmer being joined to the field with the barn allows the use of the pig, I see no official rules problem with this...

However, in re-reading the rules on this point, there has been mistake in my original post, and which changes my thoughts slightly:

I believe Derek is correct, but in this case he would only score 2 points in connecting his farmer to the field with the barn in and then laying his pig.

Remember the order of play in normal circumstances is: lay tile, move 'wood' then score. So in this case laying the tile which joins Dereks farmer to the field containing the barn is legal. At this point (move 'wood') Derek has fulfilled the conditions to play his pig (having his farmer in the field). Now he scores (as farmers cannot remain in a field where there is a barn): for adjoining his farmer into a field containing a barn, he scores 1 point for every complete city contained in the field, but with the pig it is 2 points for every completed city within the field.

Knowlton is incorrect in saying that the pig must be already down to make the claim. The pig is laid down to the tile that adjoins his farmer into the field containing the barn, so in one sense it is already down before point scoring takes place..

So Derek is absolutely right, this is a legitimate move

The person who now has the farmer and his pig in the field actually gets 4 points per completed city (CAR, ver 4.1, page 42), and not 2 as I originally state.

Now this does present a problem. It does seem unfair to be able to do this. Although I believe the rules allow for the placing of a pig into such a field, I find it incredible that that person would be allowed to score 4 points in that situation (particularly if a pig has been laid to the tile that joins the field with a barn), instead of 2. It is indeed legitimate, but is it ethical? I would not have had a problem if it were 2 points.

The status of the pig is something that HiG definately needs to clarify for this situation. How do others see the rules?

[wicke]

Regarding the above post: (page 22): The pig can be placed on fields that already have farmers or other pigs in them.

A comment to the above post: (from the Traders & Builders rules)
The pig MAY ONLY be placed on a farm that the player already have at least one farmer on and since each player only have one pig, the pig CAN NOT be placed on a farm with other pigs on it (unless they are connected later on).
Therefore it can't be possible to place the pig on another player's farm, no matter if he has just a farmer or if he has a barn on it.
The same goes for a just-placed tile that connects a farm to another players farm.

[mdjvz]

Maybe I am missing something but the rule "a farmer with a pig receives the usual 4 points" applies to heading above which says "scoring when a fram is PLACED".

The farm is not placed so we must look at the next pararagraph "scoring when a farm is connected" and there I read "With a pig 2 points instead of 1".

So why do you think 4 points apply here?!?

Mdjvz

[wicke]

exactly mdjvz, of course there will be only 2 points per city if a farm with farmer and pig is connected to a farm with a barn.
AND the pig CAN NOT be placed on the actual tile that connects the farms, the pig must be on the farm with his farmer BEFORE being connected to a farm with a barn.

[Joff]

Maybe I am missing something but the rule "a farmer with a pig receives the usual 4 points" applies to heading above which says "scoring when a fram is PLACED".

The farm is not placed so we must look at the next pararagraph "scoring when a farm is connected" and there I read "With a pig 2 points instead of 1".

So why do you think 4 points apply here?!?

Mdjvz

Yes, sorry. Regarding the points, I see this now. My apologies. So I revoke my last post regarding the point scoring and will stand by my original posting.

Regarding the above post: (page 22): The pig can be placed on fields that already have farmers or other pigs in them.

A comment to the above post: (from the Traders & Builders rules)
The pig MAY ONLY be placed on a farm that the player already have at least one farmer on and since each player only have one pig, the pig CAN NOT be placed on a farm with other pigs on it (unless they are connected later on).
Therefore it can't be possible to place the pig on another player's farm, no matter if he has just a farmer or if he has a barn on it.
The same goes for a just-placed tile that connects a farm to another players farm.

What rules are these? RGG? In all the games i've seen played, those using 3rd edition rules have always allowed the pigs to be placed in fields where there are other farmers or pigs. I have also seen this using RGG rules. Even the official computer game allows pigs to be placed in farms already containing farmers and pigs of other colours! Using the CAR (which are the translation of the 3rd edition rules that I abide by), this also states that pigs can be placed in fields containing other farmers or pigs.

AND the pig CAN NOT be placed on the actual tile that connects the farms, the pig must be on the farm with his farmer BEFORE being connected to a farm with a barn.

But to make this statement you must explain where the rules state this. This is assumption and not in the rules.

[wicke]

The T&B rules clearly state (and in bold):
"A player may only place his pig in a field where he has at least 1 farmer",
therefore it is impossible to place a pig on another players farm with a barn, since then he can't have a farmer there, for obvious reasons.

[Joff]

The T&B rules clearly state (and in bold):
"A player may only place his pig in a field where he has at least 1 farmer",
therefore it is impossible to place a pig on another players farm with a barn, since then he can't have a farmer there, for obvious reasons.

This is at no odds with the subject under discussion. Of course it is impossible to play your pig when you do not have a farmer to support it, but that is not what's being argued!

The subject under discussion is whether you may place a pig in a field that contains another pig: eg. You have a farmer (green) and a pig (green) in a field. Another player connects his farmer (red) into your farm (perfectly legal). There is now a green farmer, a green pig and a red farmer in one field. On his next turn, the red player lays a tile that extends the field in question. He now plays his red pig into this field (again, perfectly legal as he has a farmer in the field). Now the farm contains a green and red farmer and a green and red pig.
Just to clear this point up, which is where the confusion probably lies: I am not saying or suggesting that the pig can be played on its own!!! It must always have a supporting farmer of its own colour present in the field to which it is played.

To go over the flow of the discussion: A player has a farmer in a field. This field is then connected by a tile to a field containing a barn. At this point the player may place his pig (he has a farmer in the field that is connecting to the barn field). This is perfectly legal!

On my original post I stated the conditions one has to meet (I have coloured the text red):

Remember the order of play in normal circumstances is: lay tile, move 'wood' then score. So in this case laying the tile which joins Dereks farmer to the field containing the barn is legal. At this point (move 'wood') Derek has fulfilled the conditions to play his pig (having his farmer in the field). Now he scores (as farmers cannot remain in a field where there is a barn): for adjoining his farmer into a field containing a barn, he scores 1 point for every complete city contained in the field, but with the pig it is 2 points for every completed city within the field.

Knowlton is incorrect in saying that the pig must be already down to make the claim. The pig is laid down to the tile that adjoins his farmer into the field containing the barn so in one sense it is already down before point scoring takes place..

I hope this clears up any confusion. The CAR is available in the Downloads section