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Author Topic: Count of carcassonne questions  (Read 16062 times)
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Carcking
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2012, 11:38:00 pm »

So, according to the above information and Carcking changed opinion, we came to the conclusion that CAR footnote 67 is still true. And I agree that:
It would be great to hear if HiG or RGG addressed this in a FAQ.

Yes, after carefully re-reading the footnote 67 it is important to see that it refers to empty features during the game - as opposed to incomplete features. Incomplete features cannot be moved into from the City during the game but empty features can be when they are completed. The footnote does not pertain to incomplete features - In light of this I agree with footnote 67.  Smiley

The issues that remain between the CAR and original rules are footnotes 70 and 72:

Footnote 70 seems to indicate it is allowed to move a follower to a farm with barn to trigger scoring during the game. According to the original rules a feature must be already scoring in order to move a follower from the City.

Footnote 72 indicates it is allowed to move to unoccupied features at game end. I find no basis in the rules for scoring unoccupied features at game end and it's not supported by the Castle rules. I don't know if HiG or RGG have officially offered a FAQ on this subject.

I have to disagree with both of those footnotes for the time being and with the information I have. I'm sure there are varied opinions however and that's the beauty of house rules.  Cheesy
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Scott
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2012, 12:23:21 pm »

I see a bit of confusion going on in here; I'm going to try and clear it up.

First, I must remind everyone that CAR footnotes in the Q&A format are clarifications from HiG. Footnotes not in the Q&A format are observations made by comparison of HiG and RGG rules documents. Matt has always stated that footnotes never represent personal opinions or conclusions.

Part of the confusion appears to be due to a translation issue in the RGG rules, where it states that follower deployment is triggered by scoring, but the German rules state that follower deployment is triggered by the completion of a feature regardless of whether it is occupied or not. This is illustrated in footnote 67 as Carcking mentioned earlier.

Footnote 70 appears strange on its own, but I think you need to also consider footnote 71 simultaneously. Players are not being given carte blanche to deploy farmers whenever they want. A barn has to have been placed to trigger farmer deployment. At the end of the game, you can deploy your farmers willy nilly, and it's possible that a farm with a barn might yield more points, even at one per city, if all the non-barn farms have a small number of cities. For example, if there exists a farm with a barn that has nine cities attached, you could deploy to that farm and score 9 points. Other farms may only have two cities each, which would only yield 6 points. Note carefully that you cannot score 1 point per city per farmer, so if you have multiple farmers to deploy you would deploy them to different farms.

Footnote 72 is definitely confusing if you're used to the English RGG rules, which only allow deployment to features already being scored. The German HiG rules refers to deployment to features which are completed, but farms are never considered complete, which may be what prompted Matt to ask the question of how does follower placement during final scoring work. HiG is giving more information than we bargained for in their response, and it actually does make sense. Incomplete features are scored at the end of the game; the placement of the final tile is the trigger. In between these two steps, HiG is allowing us to deploy followers to any incomplete feature (and not to any completed features).

If you play RGG rules at your house, then you may only deploy to occupied features; maybe you are also still using the complicated farmer scoring. If you play HiG rules at your house, which I strongly recommend, then you may deploy to unoccupied features also.
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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2012, 12:46:49 pm »

BIG thanks to you, Scott!
Good explanation of the rules, and also I am glad that I understood rules in right way.
The only question you didn't mention is: can I move followers from the City of Carcassonne when a farm with a farmer(s) is connecting to a farm with a barn. As far as I can see the answer is "yes", but I need to be sure Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2012, 02:43:19 pm »

Yes, when an occupied farm is connected to a farm with a barn, causing a player to score his farmers, then a round of deployment may begin (if there are any farmers in the City of Carcassonne).
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Carcking
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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2012, 05:27:14 am »

First, I must remind everyone that CAR footnotes in the Q&A format are clarifications from HiG. Footnotes not in the Q&A format are observations made by comparison of HiG and RGG rules documents. Matt has always stated that footnotes never represent personal opinions or conclusions.
This is good information to know. It provides a context for the origin of the footnotes.

Footnote 70 appears strange on its own, but I think you need to also consider footnote 71 simultaneously. Players are not being given carte blanche to deploy farmers whenever they want. A barn has to have been placed to trigger farmer deployment. At the end of the game, you can deploy your farmers willy nilly, and it's possible that a farm with a barn might yield more points, even at one per city, if all the non-barn farms have a small number of cities. For example, if there exists a farm with a barn that has nine cities attached, you could deploy to that farm and score 9 points. Other farms may only have two cities each, which would only yield 6 points. Note carefully that you cannot score 1 point per city per farmer, so if you have multiple farmers to deploy you would deploy them to different farms.
Unfortunately, footnote 70 is written incorrectly. I don't believe it is HiG's intent to give carte blanche to barn-scoring from the City but the footnote (by itself) indicates that that is exactly what the player may do. Without this footnote to the footnote an unsuspecting player will be implementing incorrect rules into his game - or hopefully be at least confused and questioning. I don't believe even footnote 71 helps to clarify as that relates to the moment the barn is placed while footnote 70 relates to barns already in play.

Footnote 72 is definitely confusing if you're used to the English RGG rules, which only allow deployment to features already being scored. The German HiG rules refers to deployment to features which are completed, but farms are never considered complete, which may be what prompted Matt to ask the question of how does follower placement during final scoring work. HiG is giving more information than we bargained for in their response, and it actually does make sense. Incomplete features are scored at the end of the game; the placement of the final tile is the trigger. In between these two steps, HiG is allowing us to deploy followers to any incomplete feature (and not to any completed features).
Aside from the question of scoring unoccupied features at game end is the question of how to deploy followers from the city at game end. Does the opportunity pass around the table just once? Or continually until everyone is satisfied? During the game it's just once but the footnote indicates it keeps going at game end. I question if it was HiG's intent to contradict the method of during the game deployment.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 07:10:06 am by Carcking » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2012, 11:46:58 pm »

Aside from the question of scoring unoccupied features at game end is the question of how to deploy followers from the city at game end. Does the opportunity pass around the table just once? Or continually until everyone is satisfied? During the game it's just once but the footnote indicates it keeps going at game end. I question if it was HiG's intent to contradict the method of during the game deployment.

The footnote states that, during end-game deployment, each player deploys one follower at a time until all followers have been deployed. I expect this would be more time consuming, and I think it unlikely to have a different result than just having each player deploy all of their followers right away. End-game scoring takes long enough already.
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