Carcassonne Central

I've been given the OK by Kevin Graham to adapt his Sheep & Shepherds expansion for use here.  I'm going to start that soon.  It shouldn't take very long.

Sounds cool. The link isn't up on BGG anymore so adapt this fast. The name itself sounds fun. Does it add elements from Arc of the Covenant or Hunters & Gatherers like the pastures or the hunters?

I'm not sure as I've never played those games, but here is the gyst of it...
A follower may be placed in a farm/field as a Shepherd (upright to differentiate from farmers).  Each player has several sheep in their supply that may be played on any other farm not occupied by your shepherd.  The object is to connect the farm with your shepherd to all the farms containing your sheep.  You score positive points for the sheep you connect to and negative points for sheep you fail to connect to your shepherd. 

It looks fun and I found sheep online.  I'm using the same ones from Novelty's Dragon Hunter expansion.  They are cute.  ;D  Sanding and painting them is tedious, but hopefully, it will be worth it.  I hope to play test my ideas on vacation next week.  The only real difference right now is I'm only using 5 sheep instead of the 6 they use.

It's listed as Shepherds (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/579724#579724).  I like the Urland meeples on that page.

They are OK, but I just can't get past the fact that they are dinosaurs and not actually sheep.  I tend to think that Kevin Graham would have preferred sheep if they had been available.  Perhaps he couldn't find them.  You can see one of the sheep I'm using in one of the Novelty's photos from from his MEGA-Carc session.  You can also look at them at the Mayfair games site where I bought them.  Sorry I don't have those links handy. 

Now that the Missionary is finished, I should be able to start working on this one.  Hopefully I'll find some time and it will be done quicker. 

Here is the text of the original by Kevin Graham and Scott Meyers (though you can also click the link in Novelty's post).  My few simple changes are...

I plan on alloting each player 5 sheep instead of 6 and am considering only one shepherd per player instead of two.  

I am also considering a change in scoring, though not a major one.  

It might be nice to have some sort of interaction with a sheep farm tile (like the pig farm).  Either that or interact somehow with the many tiles that already have sheep on them (thats probably a lot, isn't it?).  Perhaps a bonus point.

Both the sheep and the shepherd can be eaten by the dragon (only makes sense to me), but I'm not sure about removing a sheep with a tower.  

There will likely be quite a few new rules for interaction with other expansions both official and unofficial.

How else are those tower guards suppose to get food?  Raid the market? ;D

Here is the first round of questions for the rules.  The old version states that a player can't place their shepherd into a farm that already contains another player's shepherd (seemingly a given) or farmer.  It seems to me that since farmers and shepherds have no effect on majority or scoring for each other that it shouldn't matter if there is a farmer there or not.  What do you think?

Several official tiles have two or three sheep standing in a field on them.  I'm thinking that I might award a bonus point for a sheep placed on a tile with sheep on it (something along the lines of the pig farm).  This is with the assumption that it is eventually connected to the shepherd.  Should there also be an extra point taken away if the same sheep is not connected?  Your thoughts on both/either...

Does anyone have any comments on this expansion?  I have a significant question about naming the author.  The "Kevin & Scott" version is not the original either, so how should I list the author at the front of the document?

OK, I've got the first draft text done.  I discussed some of the rules changes (listed above) with Kevin and he is OK with them.  Hopefully I'll be able to post it the next few days and maybe meepleater will be able to do the illustrations for me again.  This could be finished soon!  :)

In a few hours I will have to leave for a camp that goes for about 5 days... and the day after I get back I will be going away for another week... so getting them done may take a while...

OK, I'll ask around then.  Thanks anyway.  Have fun at camp!  :D

I'm back now, but tomorrow I'm going away *again* for a week. If you haven't found anyone by the time I come back I'll do them...

Well, I finally got a chance to put this up.  All changes to the original rules have been approved by Kevin Graham.  Have a look at the first draft HERE (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=68cb07b2e2b7f2171bee9a6e9edd9c76e04e75f6e8ebb871).

This looks good!  Great job on the first draft.  It could do with more graphics and examples to improve the quality (did meepleater said he was helping with these?), but those are optional.  The only major thing I'd change is the phrase "eaten by the dragon" to "removed by the dragon".

Agreed...  Yes, meepleater said he would help out with the graphics when he gets back from camp or wherever he went.  Thanks.

I personally think this sounds like a very enjoyable expansion. In regards to the rules, they sound good. The only part I might question...is the losing of 5 points for any lost sheep. I personally don't feel that a lost sheep should penalize a player as many points as they will gain for connecting with their sheep. This seems like it may stifle a player's willingness to attempt to place a sheep. A lost sheep should be worth negative points, but possibly a little less. Maybe 3? Again, this is just my personal feelings, and it is completely up to you to make the final call! Other than that, I think it's a very nice little expansion. It makes me wish I actually had the Shepherd and Sheep Meeples needed to play. Well done.  :)

Thanks!  I kept that +/- 5 mechanic because that was in the rule set by the original authors.  I think their's was actually 6 points, but I changed both to 5.  I think the very first set of rules, according to that rule set, actually had players loosing points both for lost and unplayed sheep.  I see what you're saying and somewhat agree, but I think it prevents people from just throwing all their sheep out there without thinking about it.  Plus, I think I'd like to avoid straying from the original ruleset too much.  I've already changed a few.  You could certainly, very easily make it a house rule though.  I'll have to post the website where I bought the pieces when I can find it again.

Losing points for unplayed sheep?...that would've been bad! But you're right, I suppose it could just be a house rule. I hope you're able to find where you bought your pieces. I might have to get some of my own...

I've spotted two grammatical/spelling errors in the Final Scoring section:

"but not connected to that players shepherd are considered lost"
The word "players" should be possessive here: "player's shepherd"

"that player loses and additional 1 point"
The word "and" should be "an".

I have the site saved on my laptop.  I should be able to get it to you in a day or so.  I'll warn you though, sanding and painting all those little suckers is tedious!  Hopefully, it will be worth it.

Noted, thanks!

Ooh, I got support credit. I like the expansion and it seems very simple. I am running behind right now on playtesting fan expansions, but the only real problem I forsee is that people may not use the sheep if they feel it will lose them points. I think lost sheep should subtract less points than non-lost sheep gain. Or maybe the mere fact that they don't earn any points is enough. I never have been a fan of subtracting points and didn't even realize that the Tower allowed it until last week (to ransom a follower). That being said, I don't really have any other problems with it. The rules are relatively well written. The only problem there is that you don't mention the goal of the expansion until "3. Scoring" when you should probably mention it sooner. The rules could also use some pictures. A picture of the shepherd, an Agricola sheep, and a tile with sheep printed on them are minimums. Other than that, good job. I look forward to playing this...once I get my own Agricola animeeples and a second set of meeples from Wheel of Fate (I rather hope Jay does release the full German version here).

Well, I might agree, but I addressed this earlier.  I'm trying to keep this one close to the original rule set.  One could certainly change the scoring with house rules.  I might mention this in the rules since it seems to be a common remark.

I do have plans for exactly those pictures.  Will be inserting them along with a scoring illustration soon.

Thanks for your input!

Made the typo corrections.  Just waiting to finish up illustrations and photos.  For those few changes, I don't think I'll put up a new version until I add photos.  Not sure how to go about including pictures of the sheep and shepherd meeples.  I doubt their are illustrations of them. 

As for the meeples themselves, HERE (http://maydaygames.com/index.php/gaming-accessories) is the website where I bought the sheep.  I got some pigs and cows too so I can eventually make Novelty's Dragon Hunter expansion. 

Images:

Shepherd:
(http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss294/meepleater/sheep1.jpg)

Sheep (mutated pig):
(http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss294/meepleater/sheep2.jpg)

Placing the sheep:
(http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss294/meepleater/sheep3.jpg)

Connecting the sheep to the shepherd:
(http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss294/meepleater/sheep4.jpg)

The end of the game (1 sheep connected, 1 not connected):
(http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss294/meepleater/sheep5.jpg)

Wow, that sheep/pig image actually works very well!  It looks a lot better than I expected.  The illustrations do the job quite nicely.  Thanks!

Edit:
HERE (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=68cb07b2e2b7f2171bee9a6e9edd9c76e04e75f6e8ebb871) is the updated rules document with the corrected typos and illustrations by meepleater.  I would really appreciate your comments!

I gave in to the masses and changed the negative points for lost sheep to 3 instead of 5.  I also made a minor adjustment to the Tower rules (captured sheep are dinner).  Just to further avoid confusion with farmers, what do you think about referring to these figures being placed in "fields" as opposed to being placed in "farms" as the current documents states?  I believe that Keven Grahame used the word "meadows" in his expansion.  

This looks good.  Could you rev it up to 1.0 and PDF it so that I can put it on the Public Downloads?  Thanks!

I can, but it might be a week or so before I can do it.  After the 11th, I'll have lots of free time for a while.

Sorry for the double post, but before I put up the final rev, I had an idea...

What do you all think about using a regular meeple as the shepherd instead of having a special one?  Standing upright on a farm should be enough to differentiate them from the farmers.  This way, the Shepherd would be factored into follower management.  Any thoughts? 

My wife and I gave this a playtest today.  It was a good game.  We played with base, I&C, A&M, River 1&2, Shrines, King, GQ11, Missionary, and Shepherds.  I won 380 to 219 thanks in large part to a 111 point city.  I also finished with the King and the Robber Baron (with the last tile), so that helped too.  I always seem to forget to score them!  I remembered at the last minute before I started picking up tiles.  Anyway...

I think like a lot of expansions, there is a different dynamic with only two players, but I was able to play and connect all five sheep with two of them on bonus tiles.  It was not easy and I had to devote a significant amount of effort to it.  I also got lucky with a few tiles.  My wife mananged to connect the three sheep she played also with two bonuses.  Overall, we both enjoyed playing with the Shepherds expansion.  We thought it helped to balance out the farms a bit since you were making farm/field efforts apart from your farmer, yet it could help your farm or someone else's at the same time.  I've decided to stick with the unique follower for the Shepherd.  It would be far too easy to prevent lost sheep with the option to use a regular follower.  I just have to make the shepherd meeples now (we used the tax collector). 

Version 1.0 (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=68cb07b2e2b7f2171bee9a6e9edd9c76e04e75f6e8ebb871) ready to go.  Sorry, I forgot I hadn't finished it.

Hmm... Can the shepherd be placed on a farm with the barn or a farmer?

Yes it can.  That's a rule I've changed from the original.  I talked to Kevin about it.  Barns weren't around when he made it and since the shepherds and farmers have no effect on each other, I felt that it shouldn't matter.

The rules doesn't say that.

Well, I think it's implied when it says that it can only be placed in a field with no other shepherd.  If you would prefer it, I can put it in there, but I don't really think it's necessary.

There are lots of things implied in the rules which leaves them open for interpretation.  It's usually best to have them in, if not in the rules proper, then as a footnote.  It would be nice if the rules are clear about it as well.

Yes, you should probably make it clear in the rules, so people know you can do it. Otherwise, I think its most enjoyable aspect, the fact opponents are more likely to help connect fields instead of subverting your farmers, is lost.

The corrections have been made and the file was made a PDF.  You can get it HERE (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=68cb07b2e2b7f2171bee9a6e9edd9c76e04e75f6e8ebb871).

And that's the fourth of Kevin Graham's expansions on the Public Downloads.  Well done Korf!

If anyone is interested in making this expansion, you can get a set of six one-arm-up meeples and all the sheep you need at THIS (http://www.rpgshop.com/accessories/boardgame-parts/) site.  The prices are fairly reasonable.  Thanks to Scott for the link from another thread.