Carcassonne Central

Well, I received the Tower in the mail yesterday.  I finally have the complete set of official expansions.  Yeah!   ;D  Now, if I only found some people to play with...  :-\

Congrats.

Now for the tough question.  Did you really buy Catapult?  It may be official but I can not bring myself to buy it even though I am completionist by nature.

And that reminds me, I need to get the camera out and take a snap shot of two tiles that are different between the original Inn & Cathedrals stand alone expansion and the same tile in Big Box 2.  I was very shocked to see they changed how the tile works between my home collection and my work collection.

Yep, I bought the Catapult.  It's not my favorite, but I don't mind playing with it.  It can have some significant implications on the game.

 

I'd like to see that.

You bought the Cathars?  How much did you pay for that?

All I need is Cathars (trying to trade AotC for it) and C,K&C (though I have them all separately). C,K&C a friend will probably be getting it sometime towards the end of the year... I got Catapult too, some of the tiles were nice (I really wanted the four-way intersection and the RRRF tiles have been useful)...

No, I don't actually have Cathers.  I guess I'm counting Siege.  I don't really feel the need to get Cathers though.

you MUST have the catars!!

Not to be a stickler, but I have the "complete set" that you mention and I still consider it incomplete without the Cathars. It is unfortunate, but those silly four tiles are the Gold in this Calf. Without them, you just have a block of stone many people here can say they have.

So if someone owns Cult, Siege & Creativity which contain the same 4 functional tiles (yes I know the artwork is different), then they don't have a complete set?  If that is true a lot of people are going to be ticked when I show that there are two version of 1 tile from Inn & Cathedrals and Big Box 2 where the tiles technically play differently but you will know they are supposed to be the same tile. 

I guess my idea of being a completionist borders on the side of pratical vs fanatical.

Which tile is that, Skull One?

I guess you do have a point there. I have the original Big Box, which has the corrected Inns & Cathedral tile too, but also was the first to watermark all the tiles (except River 1...CURSES!). I don't know if they have since watermarked the individual expansions tiles, but either way, there are two versions. There are also three different versions of The Cult out there right now: CS&C (with no watermarks), KC&K (with crown watermarks), and The Cult magazine expansion (with pentagon watermarks). Perhaps my main point was that the Cathars, while it has been recreated by RGG, is still in effect its own micro-expansion, as opposed to I&C which had a printing mistake or the other multi-print expansions that just have different watermarks. As it stands, I consider ownership of CS&C essential to be able to claim completeness since it includes an additional Cult tile (although I also have the KC&K version because I prefer the watermarks to RGG lack of them). The Cathars is the only expansion that has art significantly different enough, for me personally, to be considered a separate expansion and I think ownership of it is necessary to have a complete collection. That being said, I still don't have it because it costs so freaking much, but I do plan on buying it someday. I also am a historian and the Cathars logos and the broken walls look far more interesting than the silly siege tiles from CS&C (and they are easier to see, too). That is my two pence and should not have any baring on your own definition of completeness. There are degrees more serious than mine.

I guess to be a true completist, you would actually have to own the following:

Carcassonne (with and without River)
Inns & Cathedrals (original and watermarked)
Trader & Builder (original and watermarked)
The Tower (original and watermarked)
Princess & the Dragon (original and watermarked)
King & Scout
The Cathars
The Count
The River II
The Mini Expansion (GQ11)
Abbey & Mayor
The Catapult
Count, King & Consort
Cult, Siege & Creativity
The Cult
Limited Edition (2003) (with Carc, River, I&C, and T&B)
Kreivi ja Kuningas (2006) (with River II, Count, and K&S)
The Big Box (2006) (with Carc, River, I&C, T&B, Tower, and P&D)
The Big Box 2 (2008) (with Carc, River, I&C, T&B, P&D, A&M, and KC&K)
The Big Box 2 (2009) (with Carc, I&C, T&B, P&D, A&M, and KC&K)

So following these rules, well, you would have a lot of duplicates. Stick with your own definitions because there is always more items that can be added if you are obsessed (or crazy). Sorry for being so rude earlier, I just really want a Cathars expansion.

I'm missing 'Cult Seige and Creativity' and 'The Catapult', I'm not counting the Big Boxes as they add nothing new, same as the tiles with Hans Im Gluck almanac cos they are in 'Cult...' etc. I DO have the Cathars!  ;D Yes, I agree they are the Holy Grail of the game!!

But, to be a completist you have to also have:

Hunters &Gathers
The Castle
The Discovery
The City
The New World
Ark of the Covenant
The PC game (Collection Version of course!)

... Yes, I do have all of those.  :)

You do not need any watermarked tiles to have it all. You do not need HiG:s ridiculous compilation (but you should get RGG:s version with new stuff). Big boxes are also not needed since it is old stuff. But, yeah, you will need The Cathars (since it has different rules and graphics from The Siege). You do really not need the Travel edition either.

Being a completist does not mean you need to get every different edition, it just mean you want to get everything. Now, if you are a collector: you will probably want to own everything Wishmaster listed (and then some).

Personally - I care nothing for compilations or old stuff. But I own pretty much everything that is unique.

Spot on there.    ...and I forgot the travel edition which I don't have but it's exactly the same game as original Carcassonne and I still think it's a poor effort regards being good for travel.

OK, so I guess I'm a poser.    ;)  I'm counting the Big Box as having all those sets.  Still, I think I've got every tile (with the exception of the Cathers of course) which is really what is important to me.  I suppose I don't have the different tile from I&C, but would anyone really count that?  Can someone post a photo comparision?

So, here is what I bought in order:
Carcassonne w/ the River
Princess & the Dragon
Count of Carcassonne (tuck box)
King and Scout
Catapult
GQ11
Cult, Siege, and Creativity
Big Box 2
The Tower

My plan is to use the extra base set, P&D, King, and Count to make new tiles.  I'm keeping the original River to play with my big box set.  I'll probably keep the 50/100 counter tiles too.  Not sure yet.  


I didn't know they had different rules.  What are the differences?

My cell phone takes *bleepy* pictures.  Good camera is at home.  But here is my description based on how I have read you describe tiles.

CRCR - Road goes thru middle and also connects to both castles.

In the original I&C, it is as described.

BB2 has a bush at the junction point.  Which means you can score, 1 point for a road leading into either castle. Also the road is now a terminator instead of a pass thru.

Hopefully I'll remember to bring the camera and the original tile into tomorrow.  That way you can see the BB2 version of the artwork.

The day after I got hooked on Carcassonne, when Microsoft gave it away for free on the 360, I placed an order for everything that was currently in print from RGG. 

Ark of the Covenant wasn't in print and the company I ordered from didn't have any copies.  Still haven't decided if I am going after that one.  I think the only things I have ordered since then is New World, GQ11, Cult Siege & Creativity and Big Box 2.

I tried tracking down the PC game and have been unable to find a source for it.  That is probably my only "must have" that still ticks me off.

Now that you describe it, I remember seeing it before.

The difference is that in Siege your meeple can escape from a besieged city if there is a cloister bordering any tile of the city, whereas in Cathars the cloister needs to border to the cathar tile.

If you know where to look, you can find it......   :-X ;)

I am a professional software developer.  I would prefer to aquire it legally.

Isn't there rules to say that you cannot score the 1 point for the road leading into either castles?  I'm not familiar with the BB2 rules.  I know it's there for I&C.

I believe you are correct for the original tile.  But look at the BB2 tile and you will see why I now believe you can score the one point.

(http://www.skullone.com/carcassonne-central/IC-BB2-Compare.jpg)

And I quit reading/referencing the BB2 rules.  I think they are joke compared to CAR.

Actually, I may have to rethink my stance on this.  Since the PC game is still lacking a great many of the rules and expansions, maybe I should simply write my own version using CAR as the rule set and include every expansion save Catapult.  I wonder just how many lawyers I would tick off?

Go for it!

Well, your belief might be mistaken.  Check out footnote 36 in the latest CAR.

Ha Ha Ha!! Like it!!  ;D As I commented there are versions 'out there'. There is also eBay, although the Collection Box does not crop up very often and is quite pricey for it's age. The Basic version appears more often, I have that as well.

Regards writing your own version, that would be fantastic. Go for it!!  :) As to copywrite, how did ASO-Brain get round it witheir online version? They renamed it Toulose but was that it? There's obviously countless 'unofficial' expansions (most are here!) and there's a few 'based on' games available for free download on the net (Pirates and Plunder for example). Indeed there is also my own 'Solstice Wars' should I ever complete it. I guess it's a matter of how it's approached.....

I'd play. To avoid infringement, just call the game "Provence" or "Catalonia" or something. Make cool names for all the copyrighted expansions too. I think you should try to program Catapult into it as well. Have the program have you select a location you are aiming for, then it should have one of those little meters that goes up and down and you try to click right when it is in a certain place (like one of the ends of it). That would set the accuracy of your throw. It could be more accurate than the real thing!

Inns & Cathedrals – Cottages & Abbeys
Traders & Builders – Merchants & Architects
The Tower – The Big Stone Building
And so on...

When I read that section last year, I didn't pay any attention to that foot note because I didn't own BB1.  Of course now after re-reading the ruling I see I have been playing the original tile wrong all along.  Thanks for pointing that out.  Now it all makes sense.

GI Joe was right, knowing is half the battle.  Reading the rules completely, even if they say BB1, is the other half!

I've decided that the name Roussillion, a reconquista state that now includes Carcassonne but was once separate, would work. Hence:
The Inns & Cathedrals – The Cottages & Abbeys
The Traders & Builders – The Merchants & Architects
The Cathars – The Albigensians
The River I & II – The Aude
The King – The Prince
The Tower – The Fortress
The Count of Carcassonne – The Count of Roussillion
The Princess & the Dragon – The Damsel & the Monster
The Abbey & Mayor – The Monastery & the Local Lord
The Catapult – The Trebuchet
The Cult – The Sect

Just some ideas, but I think it could fly as a good remake of Carcassonne for freeware PC usage. Of course the art would have to be different, probably, but it could be definitely awesome.

Toulose gets away with it because it doesn't give away the full product for free nor does it charge for playing it.  Two of the four key things copyright holders look at when debating to shut down a web site.  The third thing is direct copyright infringement.  The fact that they use some older scoring rules, very limited set of tiles (think they are missing around 100), changed a few keywords and changed a couple of key graphics helped them out. But the fourth item they looked at was "Good Will". That is the key to Touloses survival.  Since the first 3 conditions are met, the fourth makes it "good PR" to not mess with them to much.

Also, I am willing to bet, the coders got a letter from HiG that said "If you stop here, never charge and never advertise we will leave you as is".  Based on the fact the website owner refuses to even entertain code changes (even to fix bugs), is how I came to that conclusion.


As a developer with a project out on the street that is worth well in excess of $8 million, I would probably be painting a huge target on my head for HiG and RGG to come after me if I did anything of comercial quality.  Which is why I haven't started anything other than some theory programs for the PC and XBox 360.

On the other hand, I do have a game design that has the "essence" of Carcassonne but is set to a modern day theme and is hex based. I am putting together a custom parts order so I can mock the game up to play and will probably order the parts next week.  If play testing works out, I may start coding it as early as June.

I just read about a Shrines and Heretics expansion. Is that the same as the Cult?

Yes it is.

In print versions that I am currently aware of are:

Thru RGG - Cult Siege and Creativity or Big Box 2. 
Thru HiG - Count King and Cult or Big Box 2.

It may still be possible to get the HiG stand alone Cult but I am not 100% since I only buy the RGG published versions.

We all make mistakes, so it's OK to do so.  However, we're here to help each other correct themselves.  Now you know about the tile, I hope you will play it correctly.

Whoa!!! What's that then?  ???

Make sure you have had a nap or just woken up when you read what I do.  It is literally that boring.

I write software for the HVAC industry.  I am the lead programmer/project manager for software that is used to specify, quote and order heating/cooling units for commercial and industrial application.  My current code base is in its 4th rewrite and contains just shy of a million lines of code and more data than you can shake a stick at.  The software currently handles around $89 million a year in sales for my client.  Before my team (3 of us) did the first line of code back in '92, it used to take several hours to create the order and then it would take 4 to 7 days to process the order at the factory before construction was started.  That time today is now about 5 minutes to create the order and 7 minutes after they upload it for the factory to start building it.  In '92, 1 in every 5 orders had some kind of error.  That equated to $4 million a year in lost revenue to fix the problem in the field.  Today's error rate is around 1 in every 10 thousand orders.  And those errors are from people trying to override or ignore messages my program gave them because they think the code is wrong.  And the real kicker, the client gives away the software for free because it more than pays for itself due to almost no errors in the processed orders. 

At present they are using $4 million a year from the saving of no errors and the fact that program is capable of going almost two years with no maintenance to calculate its current value.  What's funny, if they would count how much they have actually paid over the last 17 years, the value is actually higher. But I try not to argue with someone who pays their bills on time.

Hopefully that helps explain what the software is and why it has its current value.

Sorry, does HVAC = High Voltage Air Conditioning?

And wow, those numbers are huge.

Heating, Ventilating & Air Conditioning.

Yeah, I enjoy life because of it ;)