Carcassonne Central

After reading through Jabberwocky's new ideas for using the blank tiles, one option specifically called to me: Catacombs! Catacombs are found throughout France in its medieval abbeys, cloisters, cathedrals, and beneath the larger cities. I think an fan expansion that included Catacomb tiles would be awesome and bring Carcassonne into a new direction: dead meeples/followers! The only question is: how does this get accomplished?

Working within the bounds of Carcassonne makes it slightly more difficult to get the "below ground feel" of a catacomb, so what I propose is that mausoleums be used conceptually. Basically, players can "kill" their meeples/followers by placing them in a catacomb, which is a new type of terrain feature yet to be created. In all aspects, they work in the same manner as a castle except the tiles are darker and more deathly, and perhaps more underground. I truly am not proficient at creating tiles (I have tried) so if anyone finds this expansion interesting, please feel free to help out *cough*Novelty*cough*. Catacombs house the dead, which means any meeple placed in a catacomb cannot come return when/if the catacomb is completed. That being said, the catacomb will be worth significantly more than anything else, except large farms. I am think they should be worth 4/space, regardless of if the catacomb is completed (I mean, are catacombs ever really completed?).

The major plus of this expansion is that there are few other rules that need to be changed except:
* Once a follower is placed in a catacomb, that follower can not be removed from the board until the end of the game.
* Any follower placed on a catacomb tile does not collect points until the end of the game, even if the catacomb is completed.
* When a player places a clositer, cathedral, or abbey, instead of placing a follower on the tile, they may place a follower in any unclaimed catacomb.
* A player may not place a builder, pig, wagon, or barn in the catacombs.
* A mayor may be placed on a catacomb tile; its majority is determined by the number of skulls (or something similar) in the catacomb.

If anyone thinks this has prospects, please help me out. I have little resources to help make the tiles nor much artistic proficiency in creating them. Having presented the idea, I am perfectly fine if someone wants to take it over to produce/publish it. I just think adding the element of death into the game makes it slightly more morbid while not taking much away from the game. Cheers!

(http://www.allendesigners.com/images/catalog/TAKE-A-NUMBER-LG.jpg)

Yes, I know I still have Scott's Mountains to develop this year as I promised him.  Don't expect it soon (like within the next month or 2) though - I want to finish off Dragon Hunters and then start work on the difficult Fairy tales expansions before moving on to anything new.

However, it sounds like a great idea to have catacombs.  I don't see them as landscape features though (because that would mean 100 tiles just to even make it feasilbe), I do see them more like an abbey or cathedral or something similar.  That's just how I see them.

I'm not sure how this will work in practice, but here is a very draft (very rough) image to give you a quick idea:
(http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/images/catacomb_tile.gif)

This would work as a sub game within Carcassonne. Example: If a Red player lays the above Catacomb tile, he can deploy a follower instead of MTW to the catacomb. Each catacomb will score 4 points, but if another catacomb tile is adjoined to the tile (at the top) a red follower may claim that catacomb also (giving 8 points). The Red player may claim every catacomb that he can reach via doorways (it is not necessary to have a red skull adjoining to a red skull to enable the red player to claim). His follower cannot be taken back until game end, but he may place as many followers into the catacombs as he wishes. I envision 4,3,2 and 1 way tiles. Catacombs may be completed but never scored until game end.

Comments? Suggestions?

skulls!  ::|

Maybe make them playable inside cities, some cities have catacombs in them, which may extent to some edges of the cities. These may join up to another catacomb piece, or just an ordinary city piece.. it's kinda hard to explain...

Allow me to explain a bit more.

This idea came about following the blank tile idea by Jabberwocky and then Whaleyland’s further posting regarding catacombs. This uses a separate idea that I was working on. This idea was a spin-off type game based on the tile laying mechanic of Carcassonne, but maze based for scoring. I thought that one might be able to change it slightly and incorporate it as the catacombs expansion idea, or even leave it as a separate stand alone spin-off game (or both ;) ). The original game idea used coloured archway doors on one edge of the tile, but I have incorporated a skull to fit the theme and mocked up a draft tile idea (above post (Edit: and now below)) to resemble a catacomb chamber.

As a spin-off game it would probably be better suited to 4 colours (4 players) only, as was my original idea. My original version used the colours Orange, Purple, Brown and Pink, which provided a use for the Orange, Brown, Purple and Pink meeples that you can purchase easily. For using with Carcassonne it would necessitate 6 colours (6 players) to be used, which might increase tile requirements.

Another option in my original was to have a passageway with no ‘door’ (which would be no skull in this expansion/spin-off), allowing any player to use the passage to gain access into a new chamber regardless of that players colour. Yet another idea (from my original) was to have counters that were limited in number to each player, but allowed the blocking of a route or the opening of the route depending on the colour of the counter used; black for blocking, white for opening (you could not open a previously blocked route; i.e. no double stacking of counters allowed, and once placed a counter could not be retrieved).

The starting tile of the original was a four way tile, all with unlocked (no skull) doors.

I have drafted up very basic rules (not our normal format) for this expansion and/or spin off. Comments and suggestions are welcome as always.

The Catacombs (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/catacombs_maze.pdf)

Edit: Just to give you an idea, these are the basic configurations of the tiles (the colours of the skulls change). Artwork is poor, I know.

(http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/images/catacomb_tiles_example.gif)

Here is a mock up of the latest design:

(http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/images/catacomb_tile_test.gif)

Edit: The skull might need to be smaller.

That looks more like dungeons than catacombs.  Add a couple of rats and it will look like sewers :)  I like the graphic though, but I'm not sure if the game is along the lines of what Whaleyland and Jabberwocky had intended for their catacomb tiles.  Sorry Joff, but I'd like to hear Whaleyland's comments on whether this satisfies his idea, or if he still would like to pursue with his original idea...

To be quite honest, I am persuing this anyway (now that i've posted it publicly) as the intention originally was a a seperate spin off type game. Whether I call it catacombs, dungeons or sewers is beside the point.

Once we hear from Jabberwocky and Whaleyland, I will begin a seperate thread for it. It is not a problem if this dosen't fit their idea, I was developing it anyway (it is just the theme that would fit).

However, any comments will be welcome, but PM them to me so as not to lock this thread up. Thanks.

Sorry, I have been following some of the discussions but (sadly) forgot my own of a week ago. I have been traveling a lot, so give me a break. I like your idea, Joff, as it is somewhat what I originally wanted before I outlined my idea here. I wasn't sure how well a side-game would work so tried instead to incorporate it into the actual Carcassonne field of play. Reviewing your idea, I think that making a side game of sorts is very interesting and a fun use for meeples. Perhaps this may work as a place to send killed followers that found some unthoughtof demise in the land of the living. Overall, I think you should go with it, but I think it works better perhaps as a dungeons or a land-of-the-dead idea than Catacombs. I still want to work with Catacombs, but I just haven't had the time to work on tiles or gameplay concepts.

My idea is more of in-game than side-game and focuses on long-term investments of followers. I want it to emphasize the deadness of them being in the catacombs, but the (spiritual?) power they retain in those places even in the afterlife. I guess that means I am focusing on either noble/royal/clerical deceased or the concept that the aristocratic meeples can afford burial chambers that may expand. A different idea of making cemeteries or simple one-tile crypts is not out of my mind either. I just have to see where it may develop. I still wish for help with the tiles, if anyone wants to, but I am a perfectionist and will probably seek to make something very Carcassonne-y.

Keep up the good work, Joff, on your expansion. I think it could be quite fun and interesting. Side-games can sometimes prove to be the most heated races in a game (see Risk Godstorm).

OK, I have thought about this.  What you/Whaley wants are the following:

1. Underground connective catacombs (with doors?)
2. Once a meeple is placed, it is not removed (like farmers) until the end of the game
3. Links to Abbeys, Cloisters, Cathedrals and Shrines

My ideas:
1. We have a tile where the edges are either farms or farm/roads.  Maybe even cities, but those would be rare and just one edge.  In the middle, we'll have a "cut out" to show the catacombs underground.

Tiles are placed in the normal carcassonne way, depending on the "above ground" edge - those have to connect to the existing features.

The "cut out" will show the catacomb underground, and if there are any doors on the walls.  I have sketched a very quick (and ugly) concept tile to show how I think it should look - obviously the graphics will be sharpened to something more acceptable if this is what is required.

2. Catacombs are scored at the end of the game as follows:
Note: "Next to" means one tile to the top, bottom, left or right, but not diagonally
Meeple in catacomb next to cloister, abbey, cathedral or shrine = 3 points
Meeple in catacomb next to cloister, abbey, cathedral or shrine, with a door leading to those features = 5 points.  (The door gives an extra 2 points.)
Meeple in catacomb next to another catacomb = 4 points
Meeple in catacomb next to another catacomb with a door (but no door on the other side) = 6 points
Meeple in catacomb next to another catacomb with doors on both sides = 10 points

This scores quite a bit, but not as much as farms.  Also, it encourages completion of the cloister and the shrine, as well as encouraging the catacombs to be "clustered" together for more points.

Towers cannot remove the catacomb meeples, but I think dragons should be able to "eat" those meeples and remove them from play.  Scratch that, dragons should also not be able to affect the catacomb meeples, but there should be some way to dispose of the body (for those who like things to be griefy).

3. Scoring depends on 3 out of those 4 features.  Perhaps if a player completes a city with a cathedral, they then get to place a meeple in a (empty or otherwise) catacomb.  Other considerations is that when a player plays the abbey tile, they get to have a free go and place a meeple in a (empty or otherwise) catacomb.

Well, those are rough ideas, but I think they are workable and will probably be interesting.  It'll need some playtesting and probably a bit of tweaking.

Novelty, I like the direction you are going with the tile, but perhaps they could all have chambers and passages instead of just a room. It kind of looks more like a 3D box that has been flattened, then blurred into the grass. I would prefer something more like the grass maybe looking more ripped up in that spot and the chamber looking more like it is still going in all directions underground. Just a thought.

I'll have to visualise how that would look before I can draw it, and currently I can't visualise what you're talking about :(  If anyone has any good examples from elsewhere, I would appreciate it.

The thing about Carc tiles is that the top-down perspective makes drawing anything that's underground a lot difficult...

Edit: I just had an idea about how the graphics could work.  I'll do a mock-up when I next have the time to show.  I'm glad I didn't spend too much time on the first mock-up :)

Do not forget who thought of it first! http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=272.msg2539#msg2539

 :a4

Here's my second attempt - note, the image is very very draft - I wanted to see if it is worth continuing with the idea.  (Note, the difference between the attached image and the final product will probably be something like the difference between these two images: now (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_KZuByZOmikQ/Rez0t2NYNfI/AAAAAAAAAB0/iDup5v-bE2Y/s320/SarazenRelicsplash2.jpg) and final (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KZuByZOmikQ/Rez3HmNYNjI/AAAAAAAAACU/FqUTNfJSa2U/s1600-h/SarazenRelicsplash6.jpg).  Oh and for those who are wondering, the finished image with the background and stuff is here (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KZuByZOmikQ/Rez5XmNYNmI/AAAAAAAAACs/5eXoashZKcw/s1600-h/SarazenRelicfinal.jpg))

This just looks weird with the 2 different perspectives on the tile... and if it is placed upside down on the board next to another that's right side up, it's gonna just look funny IMO.  Sorry, there's no ripped up grass, but I was thinking about a translucent layer near the edges to show that the whole thing is underground - not easy to do, and it probably won't show up at the scale the image is at below...

Whaley, if this is not what you want, then I don't think I can do it.  If someone else wants to take over, I'll all for it :)

No, that looks good. If you could put something like a casket or skulls on the ground or something deathy, that would finish the package. Keep up the good work (my internet is working again so I should be able to reply faster).

If we're still sticking with passages and whatnot to attach these catacombs (which we probably should), I am thinking this should start as a 24 tile set. That way, there are about twice as many tiles as cloisters from the basic game (at least I believe that is so, I haven't really checked recently). Since these take up quite a bit of space on the tile, they probably shouldn't be too crowded. Here are my suggestions (skipping Rivers, Forests, and any other fan-made expansions):

First sheet (basic game tiles):
2 x CCFF (connected city)
2 x CCFF (two separate cities)
2 x FRFR (continuous road goes around(?) catacomb [or over])
2 x FFFF (with cloister)
2 x CRFR (again, over or around catacomb: continuous road)
2 x RRFF (continuous curved road)

Second sheet (more complex tiles):
CRFF (as in your example: dead-end road)
CFFR (reverse of above)
CFRF (dead-end road across from city)
CCCC (catacomb beneath full city tile)
CCCF (catacomb surrounded by three separate cities)
CCCR (connected cities with catacomb under city)
FRRR (roads end at catacomb or below it)
RRRR (roads go around catacomb; continuous roads)
2 x RRRR (two separate continuous roads, catacomb between them)
FCFC (two separate castles across a field with a catacomb in it)
FCFC (one connected castle with catacomb in one of the fields)

I hope these descriptions are comprehensible and sound good. Feel free to tweak any of them. I tried to stay within the bounds of the basic game, intending any expansions to this variant to include official and unofficial Carc expansion features. Thus I have kept Shrines out of it. If any of you feel any of the tiles won't work or need to change, feel free to do suggest it. Any other suggestions are welcome to.

The "topsides" description looks good.  How about the catacombs themselves?  I don't forsee all tiles with 4 exits... I think some of them could probably have less exits.

I think I will leave that to you. Have a good mix of 1s, 2s, 3s, and 4s, preferably of equal amounts (I guess that would mean 6 of each). Basically, place whichever one works best within the confines of the tile you are making. If there is only room for 1 exit, then don't stress making more. Only put 4 on the tile if there is really room for it, otherwise, put less. They don't have the be perfectly 6 of each, that is more the perfect situation rather than what the reality has to be. All I request is that tiles with multiple copies have different quantities of exits than each other. That way, they aren't identical draw (I just hate drawing four RRFF in a row!).

I like this idea a whole lot! It does give a different feel to the game with these dead meeple.

Having said that, the catacombs could also be a variant of the manifold idea that I included in my original list. All of the cities that share a catacomb are the same city, just connected by these underground passages. Could make for a very expensive and very hard to close off city.

Having given this some more thought...
4 points is nice tactically, but strategically, the catacombs would not be something worth playing for at all under the rules given. There's just no reason to commit a follower permanently for only four points except maybe on your last couple turns. So let me suggest a modification to the proposed rules:

1. A catacomb is always depicted as connected to a city [like what Novelty has drawn already, with the tunnel leaving the city].
2. On a turn in which you place a tile but do not place a meeple, you may move a meeple already in the city into the catacombs, provided there is still space in the catacombs. All meeple in a catacomb must be the same color.
3. At end of game, meeple in the catacombs are worth 4 points each, but only if the catacomb is full.
4. Meeple that move to the catacombs do NOT count toward ownership of the city.
5. Big meeple can only be moved in if there are two empty tombs.
6. Builders, pigs, etc, cannot be placed in catacombs.

These adjustments give a strategic use to the catacombs: Suppose you commit a meeple to a city. You know that city is not going to complete because the tiles needed to complete it are already played or don't exist. Thus your meeple is already stuck for the rest of the game, and you're only going to get partial points [or perhaps zero points if there's a cathedral]. The catacombs are an option -- you move your meeple into the catacombs for four points. The trick is you have to decide to do this before your opponent who is also stuck in the city decides to take this option.

I'd recommend that catacombs hold only 1 or 2 tombs, never more. A three or four meeple catacomb might occasionally be useful, but really, most of the time if a city is big enough for you to have thrown more than two meeple at it, the partial points are going to be worth more than the catacomb, even at 4 points per meeple, cathedrals being the rare case. A catacomb with 3 or 4 tombs would rarely be useful, but 1 or 2 it might be worth it. It might even be worth it sometimes when you own a city by a wide margin and you move some guys to the catacombs to score a few extra points beyond your opponent, though this would only be worth it right at the end game.

Here's what I think is the final version.  I'm not sure if the skull is even visible at this scale...

I think that's the best of my capabilities.  Let me know if this works for you Whaley.  Once I get the greenlight from you, I'll do the rest.

I like it. It looks to scale, and I think that's important. I mean, if the skull is hard to see, you could always put a skull icon on it somewhere. But I approve. Build on!

I think a skull icon would be a good idea, because unless somebody told me what the tile was for, I would be very confused.

Icons are usually used for something extra.  None of the regular features have icons to identify what it is.  I don't think there should be an icon on this landscape feature, unless the icon does something else.

The first sheet (http://www.dukenostalgia.com/carc/expansions/cat1.pdf) is done... I think.  It doesn't have any icons.  Let me know if this is what you want, Whaley.

With regards to the second sheet... I'm not sure if it's possible to have the catacombs under the city completely (i.e. CCCC or CCCR).  That's because the buildings on top in the city will be a pain.  Do you think you could change those 2 tiles to something else?

Unfortunately, my mind is a blank. I have been working overtime on some homework assignments before Easter Break and, despite attempts to get my Settlers CARA out, cannot for the life of me think of two new tiles for the expansion. For the CCCR tile, could you possibly make a three-sided connected city (as in, around the catacombs) without using the full graphics of the 3-sided city tile? Or better yet, could you make a CCCR with a two cities connected by a bridge (over the catacomb) and a third city on one side and a road on the other? Those types of cities usually get connected when I play. I am not sure what to do with the CCCC catacomb, though. If there is any compromise you could think of, I would probably approve. I wanted to find some way of putting a catacomb under a city, but I didn't want to make it an extra hard tile to make or anything. Thanks for all the work on these tiles. They look awesome.

The bridged CCCR might be possible.  I'll try the CCCC tile with the catacombs, but it might look even more like "a hole in the ground" than usual.  If you have any other idea throughout the week, please feel free to post.

Edit: Here (http://www.dukenostalgia.com/carc/expansions/catrules.pdf) is what I think the rules should be.  Please let me know what changes need to be made.

OK, here's page 2 (http://www.dukenostalgia.com/carc/expansions/cat2.pdf).  If there are no further comments regarding these or the rules, I'll finalise them over the weekend.

You are my hero, Novelty. The under-city tile looks great and the bridges too! I like the rules but don't really have a lot of time to edit them right now. I think they are pretty good. I can't know for sure until I playtest the slightly modified rules, which I can't do until my printer is working again, which can't get fixed until after Spring Break. In other words, release the expansion and I will provide my 12 cents as soon as I can. Thank you again for making this expansion. It feels good to have contributed to one of these finally. I look forward to playing with the tiles asap. Cheers!

Since I have my hands full with another expansion, I'm going to throw this idea out there for anyone to grab.  Maybe its no good, I don't know.  What if there were clear plastic tiles that depict an underground element?  The plastic tiles would be played over the top of any other tiles.  You would draw a plastic tile every time you draw a tile with a Catacomb icon, or maybe just have the choice to choose one tile type each turn: paper or plastic  :).  This way, you could literally create a connected cave network beneath Carcassonne.  There could be mining, underground cities, railroads, & waterways, grave robbing, secret treasures, cave monsters, new ways to connect cities, etc.  There are many directions you could take the idea.  Crafting tiles would be interesting, probably using overhead projector sheets.

Not a bad idea, taking the game 3D

Sounds like a spin-off idea.  It's a good idea though, but please don't ask me to change what I've already done for this expansion.   :-\

Oh no not at all.  I was mostly just thinking out loud.  By nature it would have to be an expansion as you would need the regular tiles to make it work.  You're playing the clear plastic tiles on top of the normal tiles so that you can see what is above and below ground.

Sounds like a separate different idea then.  I think it warrants its own thread :)

Anyways, back to the original idea of this thread (sheesh, what's it with people trying to hijack this thread?  :o), here's the new version of the rules (http://www.dukenostalgia.com/carc/expansions/catrules02.pdf) with minor corrections done and the scoring examples added.

I'm going to stick a fork in this (pun not intended) and call it done.  Look for it in the Public Downloads (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=49&Itemid=62) page.