Carcassonne Central

Quick question (thanks for the quick replies on my other questions!).

Not the most important rule in the world, but came up last night in a game.

Does the lake tile itself count as someone's turn?  The rules (CAR) state this:

"When the river is finished, the lake tile is placed, and the game continues with the remaining tiles."

So I guess it could be read either way.  We had been playing that the lake tile is just placed on the board and then the person who WOULD have had to play it gets to draw one from the pile instead.

The other folks (whose house we were at) had been playing it differently - if you're next in line, you get "stuck" with the lake tile and that's your turn...

Ruling?

Thanks,
Sped

according to river 2 rules, it doesn't count as a player's turn...

I think it does count as a turn because you can place a meeple on the lake with the city or a farmer on the original lake.

The lake tile from River 1 does count as someone's turn. The lake tile with the city on it from River 2 counts as someone's turn. The lake tile with the volcano on it from River 2 doesn't count as someone's turn.

I've never seen that ruling, regarding the volcano lake tile, in the rules before until I looked at the CAR today!

This presents a small problem and shows up an ambiguity in the rules. The player who lays the volcano lake tile could deploy a pig to the tile legally (part of the P&D rules, and should he have a supporting farmer, of course), but then (according to River II rules) take another tile.

I remember bringing this up in the past. The culprit is the volcano. Under the original rules, builders and pigs were considered followers so you couldn't deploy anything to this tile. To make things more fair, the player got to draw another tile and place it after. Then they changed the rules such that builders and pigs are not followers, so there could be a situation where one could deploy the pig to the volcano/lake tile, draw another tile, and deploy another meeple.

That does seem like someone wasn't thinking properly. Why not just make it so that if you draw a tile with a volcano, your MTW action must be to move the dragon? So much simpler...

You cant move the dragon as the volcano pieces are for dragon placement, the tiles with the dragon penant on  are for movement. We have always played that the person who lays the lake/volcanoe tile cannot place any piece on it but takes a new tile.

Also, when not playing with the dragon, the volcano lake tile is just an ordinary lake tile...

I know, start playing with the Fishermen rules - that will make this issue redundant ;D

Edit: Maybe I should start lobbying HiG to introduce a version of Fishermen as their next expansions! :o

I do not agree with the CAR in this case. If you place a pig on the same tile as the dragon it is like free lunch.

@Tobias: It says so in the official rules for P&D, not just the CAR. You are indeed allowed to place a pig or a builder on the volcano tile, and the dragon won't "see" them until it moves and *returns* to the tile at a later point in the game.

With the lake/volcano tile it all depends on which rules you're using. If you follow River II rules, the player gets to draw another tile (whether or not he may deploy a pig/builder first is up to your own interpretation; I believe at the time River II was first issued it was not allowed since pigs and builders were still followers then and could never be on the same tile as the dragon). If you follow P&D rules, you do not get to draw another tile.

IMHO they should have adapted the River II rules when it was re-issued with the 6th expansion, to remove the "draw another tile" bit.

Hester

Dragons eat pigs and that is all I need to know. (Just as a tile with a pig herd is .. a pig herd tile.) To argue otherwise is to defy all that is logical. The Volcano/lake tile is part of River II - thus the rules for River II apply. That means you can not place anything on that tile. There is no other tile whose usage/application changes with rules from another expansion. Or is there?

Also - since you (all of you!) seems to like semantics:

The rules from River II says: "... the player placing this tile plays no follower on it, but does, immediately, play an additional tile." Note the bold word. You can not place anything (not even a "non-follower") before immediately, right? In fact - you can not do anything but place another tile.

Are you suggesting that the dragon can eat the pig herd on the pig herd tile as well? ;D

It's only logical. ;D

Obviously not, since there is a vast difference between what you as a player do - and what is done (tile graphics etc) "by the game". I guess you could play it that way if you wanted to - you just need some way to cover the herd (a wooden token would work). But then again - that would be a house rule.

Does this digression means that you agree with me, but feel you should not, and need to express it in some way? Because - you did not really care to reply to my main argument.


Yeah - it is. {vi

It does seem if Tobias is correct.

It is still unclear when playing with just the River (not River II), but I think one could safely assume that you are not allowed to place a follower to this tile either.

No, but your main discussion was with hester.  My opinion of it is to play with the Fishermen's rules, in which case the main argument is redundant, which I have already been stated above.

I just find it humourous that the dragon may be able to eat the pig herd on the pig herd tile as well and I made that comment complete with the smiley to show that I'm not to be taken seriously.  Anyways, back to the "main argument" for which my opinion would just complicate matters.  Anyways, if it is a "ruling" that is required from HiG, perhaps it should be posted to the HiG questions thread?

Just a thought, if you are to play the 2nd tile immediately after playing the lake tile with the volcano, does that mean you don't even get the chance to play the dragon on the volcano tile?

No, the rules are already clear in that regard:

"The player who places the volcano may not deploy a follower to this tile, but should place the dragon on the tile instead. The player may therefore take another tile immediately, thus beginning the normal game."

The 'immediately' comes after the placing of the Dragon (assuming that P&D is being used).

@Tobias:


I'm not saying the rules are logical, I'm just quoting them (and I even agree that they are all BUT logical!).

But in my opinion it makes no sense to treat the lake/volcano tile any different than all the other volcano tiles -- unless you're playing with some of Novelty's fantastic expansions, the lake is just an image with no real playing value, whereas the volcano is a feature which impacts gameplay. You may consider that a house rules if you prefer.;) However, by the same token your not placing pigs/builders on volcano tiles (apart from the lake/volcano) would also have to be considered a house rule since it contradicts P&D. Seems like a no-win situation to me.

@Joff:


River doesn't include a volcano, just a plain lake, so this question doesn't really apply. Besides, the (River) rules say nothing about treating the lake any different than all the other tiles, just as the (River II) rules say nothing special about the lake/city tile.

Hester

The rules are clear.


Well, it makes sense if you read and follow the rules from River II.


I do not play with any fan made variant or whatever you want to call it. But the rules of River II is clear (still!).


I do not understand this comment? I have nothing against house rules - my gaming group use plenty of them :)


No. The tile belongs to River II and thus that tile is no concern of any other expansion than River II. P&D rules are just used to make sure players know what to do when playing a tile with a volcano on it. You can play River II without P&D in which case the volcano is not used in any sense (but still visible to players).



What are fishermen's rules? I am sure it is not an official expansion? If it is not - anything that it proclaims is moot.

The dragon may not eat any tile at all, unless you play with house rules (and the pig herd is a tile - it is not something you place on a tile).

And no - it is not anything HiG needs to worry about - the ruling is quite clear (unless you want it to be unclear - in which case HiG will not be able to do anything about it anyway).

If you use only River II, the rules are clear. If you use only P&D, the rules are clear. But once you combine River II and P&D, there is room for interpretation. We may have to agree to disagree here.


I meant the fact that I prefer to extend P&D rules to the lake/volcano tile from River II, which you obviously do not.

Hester

P.S.: How does one quote a quote so that it shows up as "box in box"? ???

House rules for me which means it's moot to the discussion as you said, but it's not for me since I use it as house rules.

@hester: use the "Quote" link at the top of the post.

@Novelty: Thank you! I completely missed that.

 ::)  Let's forget about P&D and go back to the original question:  Does the lake count as a turn?  We play that it does not.  The justification for this is simple.  In River I, before the 10 river tiles are played, the spring and lake are set aside.  Therefore, the lake is not in the standard piles (or bag) from which it could be drawn.  The instructions merely dictate who is responsible to place the tile before their turn begins.  So no, it is not someone's turn.  But also, there is no placing of meeples on the lake tile, as it's not a player's turn.

Thanks, Beast, for bringing this back around to the original question.

For the record, after playing a LOT of Carc since posting the original question, we've settled in on the fact that the lake tile does NOT count as a play (i.e., the person whose turn it is next does not get "stuck" having to play it).  After reading the rules more, I think this is a reasonable interpretation.

Could possibly make it into the CAR sometime...

BRAVO .. it seems like you've reached a "logical" conclusion.

I agree with Beast's final analysis -- this the way my gaming group plays it.  The first river tile (R-I & R-II) "the Spring" is laid out for all to see and then the youngest player places the second tile adjacent to it connecting to the river; the last river tile of the (R-I & R-II) either the lake or the lake and volcano are set aside for all to see and everyone knows how soon we will get to it and who's turn it will be when we get to it. 

Wouldn't having to play the Lake Tile as your turn be a big disadvantage, since you've lost the "Cracker-Jack Effect" of not pulling a suprise out of the bag, and everyone else knows that you can only place a Farmer on the Lake Tile, which connects both sides of the River, so any previously placed Farmers usually preclude that player from doing that?  We always slide the last river Tile up to the next-to-the-last one as a non-turn and continue play without too much interruption.

Over the years we encountered many "ambiguities" in the rules - frequently caused by someone misreading the rules - and mutual consent can not be obtained quickly by a discussion of the printed words and search of web resources, then we simply agree to disagree and defer to the House Rules of whomever's house we are in, in order to not allow a silly misinterpretation detract from us enjoying each other's company and having FUN. 

If you want to get all bent out of shape because you are a highly competitive player with an aggressive gaming style, then go the conventions.  I've watch Carcassonne evolve with the various expansion, but remember it is still a GAME to be "played" and enjoyed.