Carcassonne Central

From a previous thread I started about the river I/II expansions it cam to light that you cannot place meeple in the river sections, for fairly obvious reasons  ;) Anyway Gantry made a comment back about fishing and it got me thinking.

So here goes.

Fishermeeple

Can be used with either River I (remove extra scoring tile) or River II expansions or both.

As the river sections are laid, apart from laying the meeple on the land sections, it is now possible to place them on the river itself as fishermeeple (place them on their side to denote this otherwise they may get confused with farmers etc). The fishermeeple cannot fish the same side of the river as another meeple, from either your own team or not, unless it is seperated by a road/crossing/city/etc. However you can have a meeple placed on the opposite bank. The fishermeeple stay in place for the whole game. The fisher can be placed on a river tile either when the pulled river tile is placed or when a river tile is surrounded by a further 8 tiles later in the game, as per the cloister. This allows for the fishers to be committed later into the game and not have to be immeadiately placed on the river. To clarify when a river tile is surrounded by a further 8 tiles to form a 3x3 square then you have the choice to place a fisher on one side of the river on the center river tile.

Scoring

Scoring for fishermeeple is achieved by the following. For each section of riverbank that a meeple reaches, without any interuption, he recieves 2 points and then a further 2 points per city that is within 3 direct squares of any of its river tiles, on your side of the river only (unless the extra scoring tile is in place). Cities further away cannot be supplied by the fisher and therfore cannot be scored. If there are opposing fishermeeple supplying the same cities then the majority takes the points same as farming.

Extra Scoring Tile - Double Sided Capend City with Bridge Piece (cscs River II)

This is a special tile that allows the player who lays it to fish both sides of the riverbank,in all four directions, no extra points are awarded but it does allow for greater point scoring. This tile does not mean that you own the city, so would not get the points for completing it unless you have a knight in there.

FAQ

Placement of Fishers - Can a fisher be placed on a river tile later in the game ?
Yes a fisher can be placed later in the game on a river tile, providing the player placing it had just placed a tile that has completed the 3x3 square surrounding the river tile in question. And the player chooses which side of the river to place the fisher on, normal placement conditions apply.

Farmers v Fishers - Can farmers and fishers be in the same area ?
Yes as they are seperate trades then they can be placed in the same land area without any issue arising providing they are on the same side, remember normal placement conditions apply for same type trades and opponent trades, so no fisher from one team and farmer from another can be within the same area unless they were not connected when first placed.

Fishing the Lake - This allows the fishermeeple to supply any cities all around the lake, it does not act as a barrier, same as farming.

The Spring - No fishermeeple to be laid on this tile as it would be considered too shallow to fish but still counts for scoring.

The Branch - No fishermeeple to be laid on this tile as it is considered too fast flowing to fish but still counts for scoring.

The Count Expansion - If using this expansion then fishermeeple are the same as farmers in that they use the market section of Carcassonne City and are subject to exactly the same rules.

The Cathars Expansion - If any city within the three tiles of the river is under siege by the Cathars then the same scoring rule applies for fishing as farming in that for that city double points are scored. So for a player fishing two cities along a 4 tile river section, one under siege, they would score 8 points for the river then 2 points the normal city and 4 points for the siege city.

What are the limits of a fishermeeples range - Any bridge is an end point on the river, in that you cannot fish and provide any further than the bridge allows. The only difference is with the extra scoring tile, where you have the ability to fish both sides of the river in both directions, so a possible to score four times from this tile. If you can get past a tile then it is not considered a end piece, same as farming.

When placing a fisher on the extra scoring tile, city to city connected by bridge over the river, you can still place a piece even if another fisher is on one of the adjoining riverbanks as there are a further possible 3 riverbanks to fish from it. So "there" means ant other fishers on the riverbanks connecting to the extra scoring tile. However if a fisher is on the extra scoring tile you cannot then place a fisher on one of the banks leading up to it.

To score the extra scoring tile you must have a fisher placed on it. If no fisher is placed on it then scoring for the city of that tile would be in accordance with how many fishers reach it and who owns the most and if the city os actually complete. By riverbank I mean an entire section from one end point to another.

For clarification a fisher fishes along a riverbank from one end piece to another, bends, lakes, etc do not stop the fisher unless there is a physical barrier, such as a bridge in the way. The branch and the spring cannot be fished, which means that you cannot place a fisher on these tiles, they do not stop you from scoring though. So yes when counting along a riverbank you include the spring and branch tiles, even though you cannot place on them, it does not stop your fisher from supplying any cities along there.


So what do you all think ?

Thanks

not bad! but the obvious question is, how would you tell a fishermeeple from a farmer?

Hey Gantry

As I said when placing the piece place it on its side (arma and leg sticking into the air), not on its back, then this will differentiate between farmer and fisher. Not sure if maybe more points should be available to make it more worth while placing a fisher, but what it does give you is the opportunity to score double on a city, say if you had a farmer and a fisher supplying a city then both would count. Or even two players, one with a farmer one with a fisher in the same area could independantly supply a city with no clash.

The only thing I can think of that might be brought up is that you'll have to play them early on, during the river placement phase, limiting their use for most of the game.  To counter this, you could either change their scoring (they give 1 extra point per city to farmers, or are worth 4 pts per city for example) to make people want to commit a meeple early, or else make a rule to allow them to be played later on, after the river tiles have been played.  Just some things to think about.  I know for me, I'd rather save my meeples and use them as farmers later on, giving me more flexibility with the points.

Cheers for the input Gantry, have updated the variation above the placement now has changed as have the points. See what you all think!!

Interesting approach!  Just to be clear, if I add a 9th tile to complete a 3x3 block, I get the option of placing a follower on that tile that I just layed, OR placing a fishermeeple on that tile? Or on a connected river tile within that 3x3 block?

Oh yeah. To clarify, if a 3x3 square is completed with a river tile as the center then you get the option to place a fisher on the center tile, choosing which side o the river you are fishing from. Workable ?

Nat & I will try this out when we play next - probably next weekend.  So far I don't see any objections with that last clarification, but it should be test-played a few times just to make sure.  Also you should consider how it works with other expansions (althought it seems like there's probably no other issues given its simplicity).  Once it's done, we'll show you how to add the variant to the site.

Canada Steve, you inspired me to write a How-To (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=56.0), thank you!

 :)

(Now if someone could just inspire me to get busy on the Carc puzzles...)   ;)

This is clearly interesting! I've sometimes muttered a little about the fact that the river in it self doesn't do anything, so I'll convince Sara to try it with me next time we play. Good work!

Thanks guys for the kind words. Let me know how well you find it plays. I shall be palying it as a variant this week so will hopefully be able to iron out any snags that arise before you hit it.

Gantry glad to have been an inspiration and the same back at ya, you made the comment about fishing !! :)

I can. Since I'm sure you can't construct a puzzle that I can not beat :P

oh oh oh  !

yeah ur probably right.  ::)

You were supposed to take the bait, not give up!  8)

Okay so I've played this variant twice now and I must say it works quite well, especially when there are lots of roads tying up the farms. So I would like to put this forward as a proper variant to be put on the variants page, if its ok, and its title shall be "Hook, Line & Sinker" or "To Fish or Not To Fish" I dont mind which one it would be so you guys decide.

silly man, you can't write, edit and approve your own variant!  It's written somewhere in the Universal Way Things Work ^(tm)

 ;D

Sure but I wanna play it once!

Interesting sounding variant - I already have enough trouble with overcommitting farmers (and getting greedy with cloisters), so I am not sure how I would get on with fishermen as well.

By the way, not sure if other sites should be mentioned but someone has just posted an interesting sounding variant on Board Game Geek - Carcassonne - Holy War.   Might be worth checking out for those of you keen on experimenting with variants.

So anyone tried my variant yet and do you have any suggestions for how to mak eit play better, if at all !

I had TWO huge college assignments due on Sunday, so I had to cancel our weekend Carc session as well as a birthday (HBD Cory!), but I'll try to get a game in the next couple of nights!!!

Okay finally playtested tonite!  Natasha & I have a few questions and comments.  We used the river I, and I won 123 - 116.  I used 1 fisherman.

Click HERE (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/images/posts/fishermeeple.jpg) for pic!

Scoring: since we use the 3rd edition rules, farmers score 3 points per city instead of 4.  Your rules specify 4 points, perhaps make this optional to match what edition of the rules that people use, so it can score either 3 or 4 points per city.


This implies that one isn't used in scoring, but perhaps a better way of putting it would be that whoever controls the river with the most fishermen scores (assuming that is what you mean).


Not sure if you mean that I can place a fisher at the time that the 3x3 square is completed by placing the 9th tile, or at any time in the game if I don't place a follower on my placed tile, I can place a fisher instead? We weren't sure about this.

Observations: At the beginning of the game, the fishermen don't really seem all that different from farmers since they score similarly.  Later on, it allows you to leech points off a bunch of cities that your opponent has farmer coverage on.  So if you place a fisherman, it basically nullifies a farmer. 

In our 2-player playtest game you'll see that there was only 1 fisherman placed, and I placed it to take advantage of the group of cities that Nat already farmed.

If you clarify those questions we have above, you could call it finished.  BUT, something to think about, you might want to differentiate it from how a farmer works somehow, we thought of the fisherman basically as a river-tile farmer.  Some ideas:

- 1 bonus point for each segment length of river that the fisherman is on.  The ends of this "length" include the lake, spring, & bridges (road & city).  So you'd want to place your fisherman on the longest segment length possible. In our example pic above, the fisherman is sitting on a 6-river segment, with road bridges marking the segment ends.
- change it so that instead of scoring X points per city, score X points per river segment, and not have fishermen related to cities at all.

Finally, I vote for "hook, line & sinker" name :D

Hey Gantry,

Thanks for trying the variant and for the feedback. I will check out what you have asked and will answer you asap.

Hook, Line and Sinker yep thats the best I think too.

Cheers

OK guys and girls I have taken Gantrys' excellent comments and suggestions onboard and have had a little rewrite and play test last night.

Have a look at the amended rules on the first posting and see if they are clearer. More clarification has been put in, including more FAQ's and the scoring has been changed to make it more interesting (I think)

Let me know what you reckon .

Thanks

 


Hmmm...I guess I'll have to go back and re-read those rules about placing River tiles!!!  I've read this entire thread and think that you've done an excellent job in describing a suitable variation to game play for those adventuresome folks who like to experiment with good things in trying to make them even better ...BUT... for me and my house, we will save the FisherMeeples for or "Hunters & Gatherer" sessions [PERIOD].  Although an interesting concept for those unoccupied, first placed, River tiles...we (a group of ten couples in central NJ) have ALWAYS begun placing our Meeples on the very first tile after the Spring tile (River-I) or Branch tile (River-II) is laid down.  This almost always guarantees that the first player's first meeple is going to be a Farmer to take advantage of the green field wrapping around the Spring to both sides of the river, until a couple roads interrupts it.  Hence the need for the Dragon and Tower mechanics to eliminate that meeple and the new Spring tile in the GQ#11 Exp with a road leading right up to it.  Therfore we've discarded the "Youngest Player decides who goes first RULE" in favor of randoming drawing a meeple out of a hat that contains one of each color being used.  Maybe we're playing all wrong, but it works for us and since we're all comfortable with this way I'm not going to say anything to my group, even though I personnally want to be well versed in the rules to successfully compete at Gaming Conventions.  Our methodology probably classifies as just a House Rule for local use by one specific group and doesn't need to be definitively clarified and play tested as a semi-official variant for this Forum, so I won't. 

Johngee thanks for your response, all feedback is positive. I think I may have not come across right when I said about placing meeple on rivers, I actually meant IN rivers. I know that lots of people try to be the first to place a farmer after the spring, we stopped that with only using GQ11. This variant is designed to allow you to place a meeple on a river section much later in the game thus freeing up resources for other endeavours.

Like I say each to their own and do what works for you, personally the guys I play against are a tricky lot so anything that makes us think even more is a good development.

If you ever get to play my variant let me know what you thought of the actual mechanics.

Have fun.

Isn't amazing how many people (usually the newbies) try to place one of their Meeples "IN" the River or they begin matching browns (town to town) or white lines (road to road) when there is obviously a BLUE river running through the tile.  I am normally very patient and kind in explaining game rules to new comers, but when it comes to watching them attempt the rediculous, I want to reach out and "touch someone" wrapping my fingers around their throat to get their undivided attention.  But I take a deep breath and whisper, "It's only a game, it's only a game;" before reciting the basics of the Basic Rules for the umpteenth time.   Yes I did misunderstand your opening comment and being brand new to this web site, I eventually found the Thread that lead to your creation of this Game Variation (H,L&S).  I would love to see more commodities added into this already GREAT game, not necessarily deer, bear, mastadons, and aurochs, but fishing ponds might have merit.  It hard to get my group to try anything new, but I will take another look at your description above to file away in dark recesses of my peabrain and let you know if we ever get around to trying out your suggestions.  Thanks for posting it. 

Hey Steve! I ran across this variant today, and I must say, I both love it and hate it! Love it because it sounds, well, workable, interesting, and fun. Hate it because it sounds real similar to a variant I am currently developing! :P  OK, so I don't really hate it. Anyway, I think (hope) our variants will be different enough, but they do have some of the same elements (even scoring points for the length of the branch as suggested by Gantry). Oh well, I am still refining my variant, and I want to playtest it at least once before posting it here. Then, if everyone thinks it's different enough, we can go from there; otherwise, I will scrap it and try something else.

if you want my opinion, definitely pursue it!  Just don't call it "sinker, line & hook"!   :D

People love variety, more variety is always better, plus you'll get a spiffy badge when its done  :)

Cool. I will go ahead and post it here eventually. Even though some of the mechanics and scoring are similar, at least the theme is a bit different. Instead of fishermen, I was going with traders who use the river to move goods along its length. I am using "rivermen" as the working title for these followers, but need to do some research to see if there is a more suitable label for a Carc setting. Or, if someone already has something better to call 'em, I am open to suggestions.

Okay, Nat & I had another playtest tonite, and I seem to have a lot of comments, as we ran into a bunch of questionable situations!

We played with the following expansions: River I, River II, King & Scout, Inns & Cathedrals (and of course, Hook Line & Sinker)

Interestingly, the game started out with Nat playing 7 meeples within the first 18 river tiles down! (oh and we played with the big meeple too.)  So in the course of the game we came up with a bunch of questions.  They mess with each other in different ways, so you'll need to pay extra attention to this.

1. The Double-end-capend-city cscs (extra scoring tile) from river II might make things a tad complex, as a few of the problems arose because of this tile.  The Extra Scoring paragraph description says that it "allows the player who lays it to fish both sides of the riverbank".  What if there's already a fishermeeple down the river on one or both sides of the river on that river segment?  Does one or both sides have to be free of fishermeeples in order for this to be played?

2. Does the extra scoring tile constitute a crossing and thus the end of a river segment?  If so, then does the player that places the extra scoring tile have to specify which river segment his extra scoring fishermeeple is on?

3. If no one plays a fishermeeple on the Extra Scoring Tile, but there is a fishermeeple on each side of the river somewhere along the same river segment belonging to one player, does the city count once for each fishermeeple (on each side) or just once for the player? We are both a little worried that the Extra Scoring Tile is proving to be more of a problem than its worth.

4. The rest of the questions are clarifications in the paragraph titled "Scoring".  The 2nd sentence starts, "For each section of riverbank...", does a section curve around a spring or lake tile and continue on or are they considered the end of a section? 

5. What about the branch tile, is the straight side a continuation and the 90-degree river turn continuable, or is the 90-degree river turn the end of a river segment?

6. In the 2nd sentence of the Scoring paragraph, it says you score "a further 2 points per city", does that mean a completed city or do uncompleted cities count?

7. In that same sentence, it says "within 3 direct squares of any of its river tiles", does this distance include crossing over cities and roads (as the crow flies) or in an uninterrupted field like for farmers?

8. As per #7, does the spring count as a river segment if a city is with 3 direct squares of it?

If my descriptions aren't clear, i can draw them out if need be.  Oh, and we scored the fishermeeples last, so to give you an idea of their effects, the score was 228 to 168 for Nat, then after scoring my 2 fishermeeples and Nat's 1 fishermeeple, the final score was 246 for Nat and 226 for me.

This works out to 18 points for Nat's one fishermeeple, and 58 for my two (or 29 points average per my fishermeeples).  Although I lost the game, I clearly have more experience fishing....  ;)

Hi Gantry thanks for trying it out again. Here are my answers incorporated with your comments.


Im glad you are trying it and asking questions as my group whilst they enjoy the variant arent throwing up any questions and just accepting what I say !!!

Let me know if these answers make sense and I will incorporate them in the rules.

Thanks

Okies, I finally had time to go over this.  Most of it you've explained, there's just a couple of parts:


I'm not thinking of it in terms of farming, but like roads.  Roads have crossings like a bunch of trees or a farmhouse that basically mean the end of a road, and you count that crossing piece as 1 point for a road even though it ends the road.  Likewise, is the bridge on the extra scoring tile a crossing?  When you score points for each section of riverbank, I am asking for a clarification of what a section end is defined by. ie, a road bridge? the extra scoring tile's city bridge? the lake? spring? branch? etc.


Still I need more clarification, when in your last sentence you say "...already there." - where is "there"?  The city bridge crossing or there as in somewhere along the river segment adjoining the city bridge crossing?


Still unsure, in your rules you state specifically, "...that allows the player who lays it to fish both sides of the riverbank".  This sentence piece to me is unclear in 2 ways.  Firstly, the points are awarded to the person who lays the tile?  Do they need to place a fishermeeple or just the tile?  Secondly, when you say "the riverbank", do you mean the entire riverbank segment (many tiles stretching in both directions upstream and downstream) or just the riverbank on that 1 tile?  Perhaps more clarity in this sentence would help.


These two answers seem to contradict one another.  On one hand you say springs and lakes can be "continued around as per normal" which implies they do count as a section for the range of the fishermeeple.  Yet in the next answer you say "you cannot fish the branch" which means that they do not count as a section for the range of the fishermeeple.


I realize that, I'm not asking if you can fish the spring or branch, I'm asking if it counts as a river segment.  If it does, then I can count cities within 3 squares of it.  If not, then I cannot count cities within 3 squares of it.  Again, this goes back to whether or not a branch or spring counts inclusively as the end of a segment, or exclusively.

I think that it is probably very clear in your mind since it is your idea, but reading it, it isn't clear.  There are 2 issues in general that I have a difficult time grasping, maybe due to the wording.  It really all boils down to these issues:

1. What constitutes a "section of riverbank" and what does not, and
2. Are those "sections of riverbank" identical in terms of placing a fishermeeple on them vs counting them as a tile to measure the distance from when counting cities within 3 squares?

Hey Gantry

I see what you mean, some of my wording maybe a bit contentious.

Queston 1. Any bridge is an end point on the river, in that you cannot fish and provide and further than the bridge allows. The only difference is with the extra scoring tile, where you have the ability to fish both sides of the river in both directions, so a possible to score four times from this tile. If you can get past a tile then it is not considered a end piece, same as farming.

Question 2. When placing a fisher on the extra scoring tile, city to city connected by bridge over the river, you can still place a piece even if another fisher is on one of the adjoining riverbanks as there are a further possible 3 riverbanks to fish from it. So "there" means ant other fishers on the riverbanks connecting to the extra scoring tile.

Question 3. To score the extra scoring tile you must have a fisher placed on it. If no fisher is placed on it then scoring for the city of that tile would be in accordance with how many fishers reach it and who owns the most and if the city os actually complete. By riverbank I mean an entire section from one end point to another.

Question 4. For clarification a fisher fishes along a riverbank from one end piece to another, bends, lakes, etc do not stop the fisher unless there is a physical barrier, such as a bridge in the way. The branch and the spring cannot be fished, which means that you cannot place a fisher on these tiles, they do not stop you from scoring though. So yes when counting along a riverbank you include the spring and branch tiles, even though you cannot place on them, it does not stop your fisher from supplying any cities along there.

Hope these all make sense mate. Please keep trying it and see if its any better.

Thanks

ah that clears it up a lot!  with that then I don't see any other issues, gj m8

Whewww, glad I got the wording right in the end  :D

could you edit your first post to clarify these last things?

All edited and updated hope it makes for a good game.

Okay Steve, the Variant Registry is ready for its first variant.  Details and a brief description about the variant will be done by me, and I basically just cut'n'pasted your text into a document, and added a couple of pictures.  Here is a sample of what a "typical" variant will look like, in pdf format, remember this is just a first draft:  LOOK HERE! (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/images/posts/hook%20line%20and%20sinker.pdf)

Comments & suggestions on this before we add it as a download? Since I did the work of creating the pdf, is it fair to add the Carc Central logo on top and a footer on the bottom?

Title: Hook, Line & Sinker
Author: Canada Steve (profile (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&action=profile;u=101))
Compatibility: River I, River II, The Count of Carcassonne, The Cathars
Requirements: new rules, new follower placement, no new tiles, River I or II expansion
Discussion: link (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=53.0)
Download: link (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/images/posts/hook%20line%20and%20sinker.pdf)

Description:
This variant uses the rivers and a new follower, the fishermeeple, to add a new dimension to scoring. Players can place fishermeeples to fish a section on one bank of a river. The fishermeeple supply cities within 3 direct tiles of his section of the river, as well the player gets extra points for longer sections of river. Adding an additional element of scoring without requiring new tiles makes this variant good for smaller games with fewer expansions.

I think that looks great Gantry.

As for having the Carc banner top and bottom no problem with that as long as the writer is clearly credited on there and maybe a date of original conception so that if it was ever picked up by say RGG then they would have to pay royalties  :D

Good job.

Ah a date, good plan I'll add that.  Also discovered that URL links in footers (MS Word) aren't clickable, either in Word or the resulting PDF, so I'll move that out or do something else with it.

Added to downloads.