Carcassonne Central

Here is an interesting spin on Towers. Those that use The Tower regularly will hopefully appreciate this expansion.

Black Tower (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/black_tower_v0_2.pdf)

Have a look, comments or suggestions please :)





Edit: Link to new draft rules

Just finished a playtest of Black Tower (in a 2 player game). We also play tested Dual Dragon in this game. We used 4 expansions for this: The Tower (obviously), P&D, A&M and I&C along with the basic tiles. (Just out of interest, we used Novelty's idea for the Count piece lying on his side as the second Dragon)

The Black meeple was used lying down for a Black Tower piece.

The first thing we found out is: to allow a Black Tower piece to capture a follower at the top of a normal Tower is unfair. Reason? Take a look at the picture (the second pic is a close up). My son sees the danger to his Mayor, who was in a city worth at least 34 points, so he plays a follower to the top of the normal tower to prevent me playing my Black Tower piece and capturing the Mayor. If we kept the original idea, then I could play a Black Tower piece and capture the follower just placed and also capture the Mayor. This is not fair, so we dropped the rule that allowed a Black Tower piece to be able to do this. In this case, before you can lay a Black Tower the Green follower must be captured by another Tower (there's a tower foundation next door :)) or the Dragon. I will amend the rules to show this.


Also, I am not sure if one Black Tower piece is enough. Perhaps 2 or 3 per player is better. Maybe a scaling system, like the tower has with normal pieces.

How about this:

For 2 players 4 Black Tower pieces
For 3 players 3 Black Tower pieces
For 4 players 3 Black Tower pieces
For 5 players 2 Black Tower pieces
For 6 players 2 Black Tower pieces

Apart from the above, it plays quite well.

Edit: New draft rules: Black Tower v0.2 (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/black_tower_v0_2.pdf)

Or perhaps, limit the amount of regular Tower pieces, so you would get:

For 2 players 4 Black Tower pieces, 6 normal Tower pieces
For 3 players 3 Black Tower pieces, 6 normal Tower pieces
For 4 players 3 Black Tower pieces, 4 normal Tower pieces
For 5 players 2 Black Tower pieces, 4 normal Tower pieces
For 6 players 2 Black Tower pieces, 3 normal Tower pieces

The normal Tower pieces might need a slight increase, but you get the general idea.

Very cool idea.

You have a son?  I thought you only had daughters :p

I'm not sure I like the diagonal idea, the black tower is irreversible.  As you pointed out, the black tower piece already confers a benefit to prevent followers from being captured.  I think this benefit alone should be enough, without the diagonal capturing abilities.

Edit: Do we (and by we, I don't include myself) know of any online (or offline) stores that sells tower pieces?

I have a son and three daughters :)

It was the diagonal capture idea that I was specifically aiming for!

A Black Tower is supposed to be irreversible. In that way, at least when players know that a Tower has become a Black Tower, they can deploy followers along the vertical and horizontal of that Tower without fear that the Tower will suddenly switch back again. This is also a useful mechanism for displacing the range of a tower to help yourself.

Perhaps with Black Tower I could bundle White Tower. A White Tower then effectively capping off the top, so that it cannot be built any further.

Now that idea, would be an interesing spin. If you file down the top of a tower piece and paint it white, it becomes a 'capping' piece. You would need to increase the total normal tower pieces as in the list above and decrease slightly the nuber of Black Tower pieces. If a white tower piece is included then perhaps quantities for a 2 player game could be: Black Tower pieces: 2, White Tower pieces: 2, Tower pieces: 10

I definately want to keep to the diagonal capture as this makes for a more strategic game.

My son says no to the White Tower piece. He says to stop the Tower being built, you sacrifuce a meeple to the top of a Tower! But, I think there could be a benefit to finishing a Tower permanently.

Regarding the tower piece supplier issue... i'm working on that! When I find out, I will let you know.

The original rules stated that if a follower was deployed onto the top of a normal tower then placing a Black Tower piece would capture that follower and the tower would still be able to use its new height to capture along the diagonals. Thus, in my play-tested game, I could have placed a Black Tower piece and took my son's Green follower from atop the Tower AND at the same time, captured his Mayor. This, of course, is unfair.
However, I could keep the rule and allow a follower on top of a normal Tower to be captured, but not allow the Black Tower to be used again in that turn. Therefore a Black Tower would capture a follower from atop a Tower, but that would be the only capture possible on that turn.

I think it easier (and fairer) to not allow the placing of a Black Tower piece when the top of a Tower (either kind) is blocked by a follower.

Edit: for spelling.

Here are some new rules, incorporating White Tower pieces. I like this small addition, but I think Tower piece distribution will have to be changed to balance it out. Bear in mind that there are only 18 Tower foundations in The Tower.

Draft rules: Black Tower v0.3 (with White Towers) (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/black_tower_v0_3.pdf)

Well, a tower with a black tower piece is not really capped as you could still place another black tower piece on top.  Essentially, it changes the tower from a horizontal/vertical capture rule to a diagonal one, and there is no way to change it back to horizontal/vertical capture, so those squares are safe, despite being in the shadow of the tower.  I guess that was the intention from the beginning - to use it as a protective measure, but also shakes things up a bit by making it capture diagonally.  However, this runs the risk of making the uncoloured/wooden tower pieces "useless" (as the ability to play them may be blocked, especially in a multiplayer game)

How about if you removed the restriction that only black or white pieces can be placed atop a black piece and allow the normal tower piece to be allowable to be placed on top of a black tower piece?  That would make the white tower caps to be even more valuable as it means towers can potentially capture in any direction, and it also ensures that your wooden/uncoloured pieces are not rendered useless.

Also, Forests has introduced about 10 tower bases (I think) and Fishermen has 4(? I think, can't check since I don't have access to my files) - so could I make a request that the total of black pieces (and possibly white) is increased by 1 each for using each fan-made expansions with tower bases.

I used the term 'capping' from the beginning and I have not changed it as yet, though as I wrote the new draft to include white pieces I saw that the term was not a good one. I will change it in the next release. I have just rewrote the introduction slightly also to fit the white tower aspect in(for next version).


Yes, originally that is how I intended a Black Tower to operate.


You are correct.


Originally, I wanted to make black towers non-reversible to prevent that very thing happening. I did not think it would be a good idea to allow constant direction switching of the Tower. However, after giving it some thought, this might present an even better strategic game. It works well so long as you have the White Tower capping idea in there also. I will rewite it into another draft and see how it goes. We are due another play-test later today and so I will give these ideas a run.


Yes, no problem. I'll add it as a footnote reference.

What are your thoughts on the balancing of these pieces? White Towers are valuable so would be in short supply, but what of the other pieces?

I would say, equal pieces of black and wooden if it's rewritten to allow either to be placed on top of each other.  (I presume if this is the case, then a tower can still be capped by a follower)  White should be in short supply, but at least 2 per person if there are less than 3 players perhaps (without the fan-made expansion)?  I feel that at least half (but no more than half, although slightly less would be best) the tower should be possibly capped by a white piece in a game.

Hmmmm. I am not sure about equal numbers. Perhaps this i because I still view the Black Tower as a privilege and a strategic defence manoeuvre (that should be limited). I am thinking of slightly less than normal tower pieces.  :-\
Perhaps a play-test with several options.


Yes, a Tower (of either sort) can and has always been able to be capped by a follower. White Towers cannot be added to at all though... and there is no reason to!


I agree that White should definately be in short supply. This is definately a strategic move and should only be allowed once or twice per player. If there are 2 per person in a 6 player game, that would only leave 6 available operational towers. That would be no good. I think your balance is about right here. For less than 3 players, 2 White pieces leaves 12 operational towers. Remembering that a tower foundation cannot have a White Tower piece placed on it. A White Tower piece caps a normal or Black Tower. This prevents people laying a foundation and immediately blocking it's use.

Here is a version 0.4. You will notice that although i've added a footnote regarding Tower distribution, I have not decided on the actual distribution as yet. Some more examples of Tower types are also included.

Draft rules: Black Tower v0.4 (with White Towers) (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/black_tower_v0_4.pdf)

OK, who spotted my deliberate mistake ( :) ;) ;D ), that I picked up this morning during a proof read?

Look at the examples I provided and then take a look at the Blue Knight on each example. Spotted it?

I will correct it in the next update.

Another play-test session:

(http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/images/CC_forum_images/100_1270.jpg)  (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/images/CC_forum_images/100_1273.jpg)

I love the precariously balanced Normal-Black-Normal-Black tower :) (in the abscence of extra Tower pieces we are using White meeples for White Towers and Black meeples in place of Black Tower pieces)

This worked very well, much more strategic. It is much better to allow the switching back to normal Tower and back again to Black Tower. However, there should not be as many Black Tower pieces as normal pieces. I do not think that an equal amount works. Towers constantly shift their capturing properties, allowing no real opportunities for safe meeple placement. The Black Tower is really an alternative to normal Tower capturing properties and should be viewed as a strategic privilege, and certainly not outdo the normal Tower. I propose that (approximately) there should be half the amount of Black Tower pieces as normal Tower pieces and half the amount of White Tower pieces as there are Black Tower pieces (but in any case no more than 2 White Tower pieces) per player. Example: In a 2 player game each player gets 8 normal Tower pieces, 4 Black Tower pieces and 2 White Tower pieces... OR... 10 normal Tower pieces, 5 Black Tower pieces, 2 White Tower pieces.

The balancing of the pieces sounds good.  The black meeples holding up tower pieces makes the pictures interesting.  And You must be a really old Teenager if you're drinking out of a "World's best Teenager" mug!  Oh wait, he's playing green, not yellow... so that must be Joff junior...

It is indeed Joff junior... although when I read your post out to him, he screwed his nose up at the name 'Joff junior'... so i'm gonna keep calling him that! ;)  ;D  :D

So, when do you think you'll finalise this and Dual Dragon?

I will finalise once I have a supplier for the pieces :)

But the count on the side is a great tower piece :)  Would you consider posting the updated rules in the interim?

The count makes an ideal Dragon for Dual dragon... but not a Tower piece :) ;)

I will post rules later on... but will update as soon as a supplier is found for the pieces :)

Sorry, I meant dragon  :-[ :-X

Although I have not yet sourced the Tower pieces, I have released Black Tower as it is more or less done. As soon as a supplier for the Tower pieces is found I will update and let you know. In the meantime folks it a 2nd copy of The Tower needed to make the Tower pieces required for Black Tower :)

Rules: Black Tower v1 (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/black_tower_v1.pdf)

I have updated the rules slightly. All links are unchanged.

This is due to a problem with the distribution of Tower pieces in the footnotes. Footnote 3 now reads:

"When playing with more tower foundation tiles other than the standard 18, increase the Tower piece distribution. For every 4 extra tower foundation tiles each player receives: 1 Black Tower piece and 2 normal Tower pieces.
If 8 or more extra tower foundation tiles are being used, each player in a 4, 5 or 6 player game receives: 1 White Tower piece. The quantity of White Tower pieces per player in any game must not exceed 2 pieces each."

I hope this clarifies the piece distribution better.

A second Tower expansion arrived this morning... now I can get to work on what i've been waiting to do.

Tower pieces with the top apex removed and ready for the undercoat:

(http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/images/white_tower_unpainted.jpg)

The undercoat has been applied:

(http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/images/first_coat.jpg)

Once dry, I will sand down and apply the first top coat, followed by another to finish. More images once completed. Yes that is 'Smaug' with an undercoat for using with Dual Dragon... and don't think the Jester and Minstrel escaped while I had the paint out!

I'm jealous that you actually have a workshop where you can produce these pieces... will you be making any sets for sale? ;D

A workshop!!!   ;l7  My kids just call it a mess!

Yes, i'll make and sell some... it will just cost the price of the expansion that contains the piece required, cost of paint, a little for my time and of course, shipping... so all in all, it will probably cost less to make them yourselves! :) ;)

I was never good at working with wood :(  And I need to find a workshop (or a mess...) that will allow me access to their facilities.

Are you also making black tower pieces?  Or will you still be using black meeples with tower pieces balanced on their heads?

The Black Tower pieces have been painted today. Waiting for them to dry so I can apply the 2nd coat.

Here is the finished Black and White Tower pieces:

(http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/images/tower_pieces.jpg)

They will be properly dry in a couple of days. We will have a game with Black Tower soon. I will post some pics of the expansion being played with the new pieces.

For those interested, the 'Workshop' is just a bench in my garden shed and the small hut you can see in the mini-vice is a Trading Post for my new orange set of Carc pieces. Trading Posts is the variant/expansion that gets the most use when we play Carcassonne.

And now they are completely dry:

(http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/images/white_tower.jpg)

This is an example of a seven storey white tower.

I miss the tower pieces balancing precariously on black meeples ;D

This look so good.  I wish I had a set of black and white tower pieces...

I love this variant.

It occurs to me, though, that to make tower pieces could be less expensive than buying a Tower expansion.  It would take a band saw and a small piece of hardwood.  The top ridge on the new tower pieces is not absolutely critical to keeping the pieces stacked during play, and the bottom ridge (cut into the piece) could be easily cut with the band saw. 

The pieces would not be identical to what comes in the expansion, but would save money.  A small piece of red oak (off the shelf at a home improvement store) that is large enough to make as many pieces as the variant requires would only cost about $5.  The band saw is a little more expensive!

After finals next week, I'm going to see if I can figure out the best way to make new pieces.

I'm glad you like it.

One thing I do strive to do is actually make up a working copy of what I would like to see if it were really an official expansion (just to show that it can be done). It is also aesthetically pleasing to have them made from actual Tower pieces. Fortunately, Black Tower was quite easy to make once I had the extra expansion (but of course, that cost me).

I agree that making up a set of these actual pieces does cost more that improvising with home made pieces. I used some of the Black meeples and some White meeples for the actual playtesting as previous pictures on this thread show. The suggestion buy Novelty of using a Count piece on it's side for Dual Dragon would save expense in getting the second Dragon, and it works just as well.

My advice is use what works for you, as long as those playing know exactly how you are improvising :)

If you do make up a set, post a pic here if possible, I would love to see (along with others) your variation of the pieces.

What was the total cost for your best/final set - expansion pack (with shipping or tax), paint and supplies?

How long did one set take to make?

What did you do with the tiles that came with your Tower pack? 

Would you mind if I copied and posted your photos to a wood crafter's forum to get some input from others?

I paid out approximately £10 (sterling, UK) total to make these pieces. That was for a used copy of Tower, Black and White enamel paint. I used a satin varnish that I already had.


I started on 28 Nov making the white pieces (taking off the 'apex' on the top and undercoating). I also applied the first coat to the black pieces. These were left to dry overnight. On 29 Nov I gave the pieces a quick sand down and applied another coat. 30 Nov, I applied the final coat. On the evening of the 30th, I applied a coat of satin clear varnish. They were then left to dry. They were completed on the 3rd Dec. So about 5-6 days.


The tiles will be used for creating some of the fan based variants/expansions available here, so they won't go to waste.


No problem. I suspect they might be able to provide better tips for getting a better finish, better paint to use, etc. Let us know any advice they might be able to give.

A slight update to the rules: Black Tower v1.2 (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/black_tower_v1_2.pdf)

Those that already have downloaded this need not download it again as the additions are only slight :)

The additions made are:

"Place a Black Tower piece

After placing a tile, a player may now place a Black Tower piece to any tile with a tower foundation or on a tower which is already under construction, unless a follower guards the top."

and

"Place a White Tower piece

After placing a tile, a player may now place a White Tower piece to any tower which is already under construction, unless a follower guards the top."

The actual additions are marked in red.

curious

in Black Tower variant, do you use the additional tiles from 2nd Tower set you would need to get the pieces?

If so, any thought to dry brushing the new tower tiles black so you have to start those towers with a black piece?

I have never thought about using the extra tower tiles. I simply stuck with the base set of tower tiles when I was designing Black Tower. The idea of making the tower foundations on the new tiles black, so you have to start the tower with a black tower piece might work, but then you would need to invoke the rule that standard tower foundations must be started with a normal tower piece. Currently a player may start a tower with any colour tower piece he chooses (except a white tower piece).

Because of a player's ability to 'cap' a tower with a white piece, it might be quite feasible to increase the amount of tower foundation tiles included in the set.

Why not give it a try and report back how it works out. I for one would be very interested in how it plays.

I just think not using the tiles is a shame

and I doubt u can buy the pieces anywhere

The extra tiles could easily be used to make some of those fan-made expansions.  Have extra tiles is never a bad thing.  I got my extra tower pieces from Jay at RGG, but like I said, he might charge you a lot.

and the expansion is not that pricey

When I first had the idea for Black Tower I was able to order a couple of bags of tower pieces from my source (sadly, no longer available). It would still be worth a playtest to see if extra tower tiles would work. Using extra tower foundation tiles might require some extra tower pieces to be distributed at the game start to compensate for the extra foundation tiles... hmmmmm...