Carcassonne Central

The ideas just keep flowing. This time around it's a new meeple instead of new tiles. The minstrel is a single new meeple of neutral color who travels around the county of Carcassonne bringing entertainment to the people. I'm not sure how movement will work, but I'm thinking the minstrel gives a scoring bonus when he is located on a feature that has been completed.

1. Is the minstrel restricted to travelling on the road like a wagon, or does he walk freely?

2. How far can the minstrel travel in a single movement?

3. Does the minstrel move as part of the "Move the Wood" phase, thus preventing the player from moving any other wood?

4. What is the scoring bonus? Double points? Or should the minstrel have a different effect?

This is a similar idea to 'The Court Jester', that I was thinking about, so I will discard my idea, and let you run with 'The Minstrel'.

I wonder if 'The Minstrel' can be combined with the Fair tiles from Catapult?

Could do a dragon-style six-tile movement triggered by a fair tile.

The more I look at the fair picture, the more I'm convinced it should be connected with some sort of jester. A minstrel is a totally different concept; they usually travel solo. I think you should develop the Court Jester idea and my Minstrel idea will be something different.

Or we could develop it as a combined variant. Maybe they have opposite effects? One gives scoring bonus, the other a scoring penalty?

Here's your jester meeple:
(http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/2752/jestermeeplelo7.png)

What are those lumps on his head?  candy? ;D

Well, a jester only serves in a court of some sort and perhaps a circus or a fair.  A minstrel sings nearly everywhere!  Perhaps you could come up with 2 different meeple ideas...

A combined variant might be interseting. The Minstrel as a bonus, the Jester as a penalty? hmmmm. I do like that

LOL, supposed to be a jester hat. There are no jester-shaped meeples, so I had to cheat in my graphics program. There is no real physical jester meeple.

If you get hold of meeples from 'Carcassonne - The Discovery', they look like they are wearing hats. Could well be a jesters hat.

(http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/images/CC_forum_images/discoverymeeples.jpg)

These might make for a meeple addition per player.

Edit: Perhaps a Jester is deployed to a city, a Minstrel deployed to a road. Minstrels were travelling singers/musicians. Jester's served in the king's court (or perhaps in Carc's case, the Mayor's court)

These would both (Jester and Minstrel) be logically coupled with the Fair tiles. Pity we don't have a scan as yet :(

I think you can use the fairs icon from the rules document available at RGG.  And there isn't a grey version of those meeples :(

With Archery Tournament nearing completion, it's time to get going on this.

As usual, I did some reading on Wikipedia about minstrels and jesters. Turns out they are more closely related than I would have guessed. When the minstrels' guild was formed, those who refused to join were forced to stop being minstrels, and many became court jesters.

Joff's idea of restricting the jester to cities and the minstrel to roads was interesting, but from what I've read, minstrels not only spent time in courts, but often were retained by the noble for a while. They basically went where the money was. I didn't read anything like this for jesters, so I want to keep at least half the idea.

Placement of the fair tile will trigger movement of both the minstrel and the jester. The minstrel moves (freely) 6 tiles, similar to the dragon and with the same movement rules (must move to a new tile each time). The jester moves to the incomplete city nearest the fair tile. (You'll want to put that fair tile near an opponent's city.)

If the minstrel occupies a feature that is being completed and scored, he gives a +5 bonus.

If the jester occupies a city that is being completed and scored, he gives a -5 penalty. If the city is worth less than 5 points, the city is worth zero and the player does not lose any points already accumulated.

Any objections? I didn't get much feedback on my initial questions, so we have to start somewhere.

Minstrel Meeple:
(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/8186/minstrelpu2.png)

Jester Meeple:
(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6541/jestergl9.png)

Is it a bad idea to go for something unachievable like this?

I'm not sure I like the jester meeple... it just looks weird.

Edit: How about just a differently coloured meeple for the jester and the minstrel?  You could use pink or purple or orange or unpainted.  Or perhaps you could repaint the count or princess meeple instead?

I love the idea of meeple movement. I was looking at an idea that would use the fair tile to induce meeple movement. That is a good start.

I would echo Novelty. I think that it would be better to use two different types of meeples. Either differing colours (that are readily available) or perhaps one from Carc: The Discovery and another from Carc: The City.

I'm thinking the best would be to not include any illustrations of the meeples and just tell people to get two meeples that are different. Because in the end, each person will solve the "need new meeples" problem in their own way.

How about a mechanic that allows a minstrel or jester to travel from one Fair to another Fair as a single movement? This fits the theme of a minstrel/jester travelling around entertaining people. They might also spend time within a city, entertaining the nobel.
Not sure how this would work in principle, but this was similar to how I arrived at Black Tower, believe it or not!
A jester (or minstrel) can be placed directly on a Fair, instead of 'moving the wood'. The presence of a minstrel of jester in the farm/road/city has some sort of effect on occupiers? It is similar to the Fairy movement (or the pig movement proposed in Hog Roast).
Maybe each player can have a Minstrel of their own colour?
I’m just throwing some ideas around.
I'm not sure about scoring... I can't see a reasonable way of 'scoring' the actual Fairs themselves, but I can see a Fair as the locations for Minstrel/Jester movement, but how to make them affect the game? Hmmmm.

Allowing the jester and/or minstrel to teleport doesn't feel right to me somehow. I would need to hear some sort of argument why it is better or needs to be that way.

Having a minstrel for each player is something I considered, with points scored by the minstrel going to the owning player. This would be slightly more realistic, but I couldn't figure out all the details of how movement would work. I knew that moving your minstrel would take place as an alternative during the "move the wood" stage, but how would it be moved? Anything I can think of either doesn't seem fair or sounds boring.

Having just one minstrel feels more interesting to me from a gameplay standpoint. Everybody is competing to move the minstrel and scores some bonus points.

My idea was intended for using the Catapult tiles and giving them a realistic use, other than the rubbish way they are being used now.  I can't think of any other way for using them, and the jesters/minstrels idea fit them perfectly thematically! The catapult tiles can't really be used in any other way. Imagine using them as yet another cloister type!


I don't think it matters if the jesters/minstrels 'teleport'. 'Teleporting' from Carcassonne City, or via a 'Magic Portal' does not 'feel' right either, they are just the rules.

I was really coming from the standpoint of using those Catapult tiles for something interesting. The Fair theme would certainly fit jesters/minstrels.


So, tell me, why would it be better if the jester/minstrel be moved rather than 'teleported'?

Just a quick idea:

When moved (either by 'teleport' to a Fair tile or by some sort of 'dragon' movement (not necessarily 6 spaces), wherever the Jester/Minstrel ends up, he 'captures' the attention of the meeples within a 'cloister type' scoring range. The meeples in the area do not get removed, just distracted from their normal duties while the Jester/Minstrel is in the area. Once he has moved on, normal duties resume. The theme being is that the occupiers have gone to watch the Jester/Minstrel perform for them.

(http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/images/CC_forum_images/jester.gif)

The Blue Knight and the Yellow Monk have been 'sidetracked' by the travelling Jester/Minstrel. While he is in the vicinity (the 8 tiles surrounding him) the Blue Knight and Yellow Monk lose any scoring capabilities they might have (i.e. if the Cloister gets finished, the Yellow Monk cannot score for it, similarly, if the city gets finished while the Jester/Minstrel is in the vicinity, the Blue Knight loses his control of the city). Perhaps, a Minstrel could impose a bonus on the followers in the area, and the Jester a penalty, as was suggested at the beginning of this thread. BTW, the Jester/Minstrel piece is a White follower from the game Carc: The City. Like I said, this can be either by the use of the Fair tile (although this might present a few difficulties using this mechanism), or with a 'dragon' type movement.

Just a thought.

I think having just one for the whole game would be more interesting than one per player.  And Scott, you might want to consider a second meeple of either type similar to Dual Dragon if a lot of expansions are used.

This might not be that coherent, but I present what I noted down today. It utilises the Jester/Minstrel attention capturing range employed in my previous post.

THEME AND IDEA:

A follower can have their attention captured by either the Jester or the Minstrel. A Jester awards mesmerised followers with a penalty, while the Minstrel awards them with a bonus. Use of the Fair tile fits the theme nicely and provides a better use that what they represent now.

SCORING:

A follower who has had his attention captured:

If the Jester is within the vicinity of a follower when his feature is completed then:

*Any follower is scored at minus one strength (i.e. a regular follower has a strength of zero, a big follower has the strength of one, a wagon the strength of zero, a mayor the strength of all pennants minus one).
This means that if a player has a regular follower deployed as a monk in a cloister, the Monk will not score for the cloister should the Jester be within the vicinity, but will score the cloister if the Monk is a big follower.

If the Minstrel is within the vicinity of a follower when his feature is completed then:

*Any follower is scored at plus one strength (i.e. a regular follower has a strength of two, a big follower has the strength of three, a wagon a strength of two, a mayor the strength of all pennants plus one). This means that if a player has a regular follower deployed as a Knight in a city, the knight will be worth the strength of two while the Minstrel is within the vicinity. A Monk receives a bonus of 9 points for a completed cloister. Something like that.

A Jester/Minstrel only confers a penalty/bonus when scoring for the feature. A follower cannot be joined directly to a city where a follower has had their attention captured (i.e. the Jester has captured the attention of a Green Knight occupying a city. Although the Green Knight is worth zero while the Jester is in the vicinity this is only when scoring the feature concerned and so this does not lose him the actual ‘control’ of the city until scoring takes place, therefore a Blue follower will not be able to connect directly into the city).

The vicinity of the Jester/Minstrel is based on a cloister type area.
That is, the surrounding 8 tiles. A Jester/Minstrel must not share a tile already occupied by another follower (including builders and pigs, but not barns). If you allow sharing then the Jester/Minstrel’s vicinity is all 9 tiles. The Jester/Minstrel cannot be eaten by the dragon, captured by a Tower, seduced by a princess, or deployed to Carcassonne City as they are both neutral figures and not followers.

USING THE FAIR TILE:

My original idea was to use the Fair tile as a type of ‘teleport’ system (from one Fair tile to another Fair tile) in the same way as Magic Portals and Carcassonne City is used, and indeed how the volcano tile is used for the dragon. There is a better use for the Fair tile: the Fair tile might work the same way as the ‘dragon tile’ (in P&D) that triggers the Jester/Minstrel movement. A Fair tile would work as this, when playing a game of mega-Carcasonne, a Fair tile will be drawn approximately every 20 tiles. This gives plenty of scope for the playing of such a tile. If a Fair tile is drawn but the Jester/Minstrel is not in play then it is left to one side (the player drawing a replacement). They are returned to the pool once the Jester/Minstrel is in play. Perhaps both Jester and Minstrel could both move to the same place at the start.

MOVEMENT:

Perhaps when laying a Fair tile, this will invoke the Jester/Minstrel movement (this is essentially the 'dragon' movement for the Jester and Minstrel. The movement consists of 6 spaces for the Jester and then 6 spaces for the Minstrel. Each player takes a turn at moving the Jester and Minstrel.

The Jester moves 6 spaces and then the Minstrel moves 6 spaces, each player taking a turn to move the Jester/Minstrel 1 tile. A Jester/Minstrel moves horizontally and vertically but must not double-back on itself each Jester/Minstrel movement.

OR

The Jester moves 6 spaces and then the Minstrel moves 6 spaces, each player taking a turn to move the Jester/Minstrel. A Jester/Minstrel moves diagonally but must not double-back on itself each Jester/Minstrel movement.

A player may also choose to swap the Jester/Minstrel instead of ‘moving the wood’.

A Jester/Minstrel must NOT occupy the same tile (perhaps not even entering each others vicinity (see Difficulties section below).

DIFFICULTIES:

The remaining difficulty will be how to get the Jester/Minstrel onto the playing area in the first place. Perhaps the Jester could be placed within the first completed city and Minstrel on first completed road? Is there a way to use those 2 blank tiles from CS&C to place the Jester/Minstrel?

What happens when a follower is in the same vicinity as a Jester AND a Minstrel? Two solutions: I would propose that the Jester/Minstrel in this case cancel each other out and do not affect this follower concerned or solve this problem completely by not allowing the Jester/Minstrel to wander into each others territory.

Maybe you can use just the Jester OR Minstrel in this way for either a bonus or penalty?

Some of these ideas might be able to be utilised. Just sharing some thoughts.

Teleporting didn't feel right because I was originally picturing a wandering minstrel.

I like the range idea, and I think you've got the rules mostly finished. I think you should run with it and polish this off. I don't need to be the one that finishes this.

Would it be too confusing if the jester and minstrel were allowed to occupy the same tile only if it is a fair tile? That would alleviate the problem at the beginning.

I personally prefer horizontal/vertical movement for the jester/minstrel. With diagonal movement, it is possible for the jester/minstrel to cover more ground.

If it is allowed to swap the jester/minstrel, will the jester ever give a penalty? Anytime I complete a feature with the jester nearby, I can always swap him with the minstrel between placing the tile and scoring.

Good point :)

It depends on how you calculate the scoring part. If we were to say that a Jester must not enter the vacinity of the Minstrel (and vice-versa) then it definately poses a problem, but if we allow that the Jester and Minstrel cancel each other out when both are in the vacinity of a follower and do not affect this follower, then of course they can share a tile. However, I do like the idea of allowing the sharing of the Fair tile only for Jester and Minstrel.

A problem the 'cancelling out' poses is "Why would anyone ever split the Minstrel and Jester up? Why not keep them together so they can't possibly affect any players scoring?

Good point. Would introducing them at separate times fix this?

Yes, this is what I was thinking... the problem is... how?

The Jester is introduced when the first castle is completed. The Minstrel when the first road is completed. The two figures begin the game on the tile that completed the feature (Jester on the last castle piece; Minstrel on the last road piece). That makes it so they will probably begin at two different places and also be separated from each other. You could add the clause that if a single tile completes both features, then the player may choose which is placed first and the other figure comes out when the second feature is completed.

I had suggested this but it is not without its difficulties. It depends on whether the Jester can enter the vicinity (or 'attention' capturing area) of the Minstrel (or VV). Assuming they are not allowed to enter each others area, what happens if a player completes the first city and lays the Jester and then another player completes the first road that is within the vicinity of the Jester? The Minstrel could not be placed. Maybe it would then be on the 2nd completed road (and so on until the Minstrel is also in play)?

If sharing the vicinity is allowed then it does raise the question in my previous post, "Why would anyone ever split the Minstrel and Jester up? Why not keep them together so they can't possibly affect any players scoring?"

I do think that the easiest way is by not allowing the Jester/Minstrel to wander into each others 'attention' capturing area. That way they are forced to seperate and do start to affect scoring. But that throws up the original difficulty of how to get them into play in the first place.

What would happen when a fair tile is drawn and only one of the pieces is in play? Do you just move the piece in play until the other is added, or should you wait until both pieces are in play?

My opinion on this would be to set the fair tile aside, just like the dragon tiles before a volcano from P&D.  Then once both pieces are in play, simply reshuffle the tiles.  Though this implies having the bag and not the tower, in which case you have the same issues as P&D.

Could someone summarise for me what has been decided so far please?  I'm a bit confused as to what's happening here ???  Thanks :)

OVERVIEW OF THE JESTER AND THE MINSTREL SO FAR:

There is a Jester and a Minstrel piece. Two pieces. They are not followers, they are neutral.

The Jester imposes a penalty, the Minstrel a bonus.

Both pieces are moved on the tiles, in the same way as a dragon would move. At present, when they move, they will both have a 6 tile movement. Jester moving first (each player moving him one space horizontally/vertically) until he has moved 6 spaces and then the Minstrel moves in the same manner (horizontally/vertically). A piece may not backtrack on itself (same as the dragon) while moving.

When the Jester or Minstrel is capturing the attention of any followers in the area (a cloister type surrounding) he imposes his penalty/bonus on them. The followers are not physically removed from the board.

Here is an example of the Jester/Minstrels attention capturing area:
(http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/images/CC_forum_images/jester.gif)

(forget the Fair tile, it can be any tile and the white piece could be either Jester or Minstrel (of course, when finalised, there would be 2 distinguishable pieces for each))
The Blue Knight and the Yellow Monk have had their attention captured by the Minstrel/Jester. The Jester imposes a penalty on these followers, the Minstrel a bonus.

At present the penalty/bonus is:

PENALTY:
*Any follower is scored at minus one strength (i.e. a regular follower has a strength of zero, a big follower has the strength of one, a wagon the strength of zero, a mayor the strength of all pennants minus one). This does not include Farmers; there is NO effect to farmers.
This means that if a player has a regular follower deployed as a Monk in a cloister, the Monk will not score for the cloister should the Jester be within the vicinity, but will score the cloister if the Monk is a big follower.

BONUS:
*Any follower is scored at plus one strength (i.e. a regular follower has a strength of two, a big follower has the strength of three, a wagon a strength of two, a mayor the strength of all pennants plus one). This does not include Farmers; there is NO effect to farmers.
This means that if a player has a regular follower deployed as a Knight in a city, the knight will be worth the strength of two while the Minstrel is within the vicinity. A Monk receives a bonus of 9 points for a completed cloister.

It is the drawing of a fair tile that triggers the movement of the pieces by the players (the same way as the dragon tile NOT the Volcano tile).

All is well (except for ironing out exactly what the penalty/bonus should be), except for two vital difficulties that need to be overcome (the third one is not 'vital', but needs to be decided upon):

1. How do you bring the Jester/Minstrel onto the board in the first place? (i'm assuming that this expansion/variant will only require 'The Catapult' (and 2 pieces, perhaps even 2 of the catapult counters) and no extra tiles)

2. Can the Jester/Minstrel wander into each others attention capturing vacinity, and if so, what happens to followers caught by both the Jester and the Minstrel?

3. Can the Jester/Minstrel move onto a tile occupied by a follower? (The dragon can, of course, but the dragon clears the tile concerned; the Jester/Minstrel would just capture the followers attention if this happened).

Edit: Spelling

OK, I can understand the bonus part (because they bring joy), but why the penalty?  Storywise, (or thematically) why would one of them give a penalty?

Why would either one of them affect monks who have renounced stuff, but not affect farmers, who as peasants are?

My suggestions:
Both of them should really give a bonus to knights and thieves and farmers (when the barn is placed, but only if playing with A&M).  One of them should give an additional +1 to knights (total +2 bonus) and the other a +1 to thieves (total +2) and maybe farmers.

If that is being followed, then I think there should be a "cap" or "ceiling".  The maximum bonus should be +2 to one player from either or both of these when scoring.  So even if 1 player has 3 knights in the vicinity of one of these when a city is completed, those knights only have a +2 total.

If only the base set + Catapult is used, then only use the one with the +2 for thieves.  The +2 for knights should only be used if there are at least 3 of the other big expansions and Tower.

Of course, everything in the above needs to be tweaked.

Either way, we need footnotes for their effects on Forests and Fishermen ;D

I do not understand why everything needs to be 'historically' accurate!

I see it that the Jester plays pranks on the unsuspecting, but the Minstrel provides song and pleasure. Whether that is accurate or not, I don't believe it matters.

I do not question, thematically, why roads would be built in circles, cities are built with no roads leading from them, or with roads that connect back to them. They do not fit in storywise at all. Why would a thief be on a closed road?

Not everything have to be historically accurate, but you have to admit that Carcassonne has a certain theme and the expansions have more or less followed that theme.  If we don't adhere to that theme, can you imagine the ideas that will be brought forward?  The Nuclear Power Stations of Carcassonne?  Carcassonne: TGV?  Airports of Carcassonne?  (Actually some of those might be rather good as spin offs.  I'd like to have Carcassonne: the Space Race as a spin-off please)

Why would the jester play pranks on the unsuspecting?  That's the role traditionally played by the rogue.  We might as well call this Rogue and Minstrel if that's the case.  It would be sad though because the original expansion idea was about Jesters!

Anyways, I'm not the guy making the decisions on this expansion/variant/custom so those are just my suggestions.

We just thought it would be interesting if the two were opposites of each other. I'm open to changing this if a better idea is presented.

I'm just saying that they both should logically give a bonus flavour-wise.  A cutpurse or rogue or pickpocket or something like that would be the meeple to confer a penalty flavour-wise.  But that's just my opinion.

Just out of interest, I think that the Jester and Minstrel idea does not deviate from the theme any more than P&D deviates. I mean, magic portals? A Princess that seduces Wagons? A Fairy?

For the record, I don't actually mind the Dragon part as I do think they have an actual place in history!

Having said that, and this is serious, I had an idea for a spin-off game based on Noah's Ark. Working title: 'Noah's Carc' ;) (contact me via PM if you have any ideas that would fit this theme).

Back to the topic in hand, I still prefer the opposite effect of these two pieces, one a bonus, the other a penalty. Perhaps a name change will solve the problem? The Minstrel and the Pickpocket, The Jester and the Pickpocket, Minstrels and Rogues, Minstrels and Pickpockets, Travelling Minstrels and Wandering Pickpockets? Pickpockets operate at fairs where there are plenty of people.

I prefer the idea of not imposing the penalty/bonus upon Farmers however.

The Jester and the Cutpurse might be an interesting name, but yes, changing the name of the pieces and the expansion would go a long way to making the "story" more comprehensible storywise ;D

So, when are you guys getting this finalised?

I will start rules compilation later today, if that's ok with you, Scott, with a view to getting some draft rules by tomorrow morning (of course, that's UK time ;) )

These problems still remain:

1. How do you bring the Jester/Cutpurse onto the board in the first place? (i'm assuming that this expansion/variant will only require 'The Catapult' (and 2 pieces, perhaps even 2 of the catapult counters) and no extra tiles)

2. Can the Jester/Cutpurse wander into each others attention capturing vacinity, and if so, what happens to followers caught by both the Jester and the Cutpurse?

The 2nd question needs answering first as it directly impacts the 1st. Are you allowed to bring the pieces onto the board at the same time and to the same tile?

Perhaps both Jester and Cutpurse can begin on the starting tile (whatever it may be)? A Jester or Cutpurse only operate when a fair comes to town. The placing of the first fair tile not only triggers their movement, but begins the 'attention' capturing range of both pieces. This of course would mean that they can share a tile, which would need a sensible solution to question 2.
The Cutpurse capturing range cannot be called his 'attention' capuring range either, since he would not want a followers attention to be captured. Or perhaps he captures their attention by misdirection :)

Yeah sure go ahead.

IMHO, Cutpurse is a terrible replacement name. I can't say that I even want or feel the need for a replacement name. The game already has thieves on the road. I wanted to add new types of people, not variations on the existing ones. If jesters giving a penalty is a problem, I'd rather change the mechanics than get rid of the minstrels which is what made me post this thread in the first place.

If I am honest, although I like the name Cutpurse, I think Scott is correct. I prefer the title The Jester and the Minstrel.

Anyway, here are some draft rules (with the terms Jesters and Cutpurse included, although these are easily changed back). The rules are essentially the same (except for the names) but the Jester gives a penalty and the Minstrel the bonus. Be warned, they are very, very rough draft rules and need much work.

Very draft rules (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/jester_v0_1.pdf)

I think something needs to be added that the City of Carcassonne cannot be entered when playing with the Count expansion.

A problem I do have... and it reverts back to the two questions posed earlier;


I have an example showing the basic starting tile with both pieces on it. This causes both to be within each others capture area. How can I word the rules that will enable us to split the two apart right from the beginning? Perhaps one of the pieces should be placed when there are at least 3 tiles seperating them?

0.2 very draft rules (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/jester_v0_2.pdf)

Do you think we should allow the Jester and Minstrel to overlap each others capture area (there is no bonus or penalty imposed on followers captured in both areas)? Pehaps not allow the Jester and Minstrel to share a tile?

Or perhaps rules worded something like this:

"Except at the start of the game (on the staring tile) the Jester and Minstrel cannot share the same tile."

"Except at the start of the game (on the staring tile) the Jester and Minstrel cannot share the same tile, unless that tile is a fair tile."

"Followers that are caught in both the Jesters attention capturing range and the Minstrels attention capturing range do not have either a penalty or a bonus imposed on them."

How about when the Jester and Minstrel come within a tile of each other, they are removed from the board :)

I think they should not be allowed to enter each other's area. I don't mind if their areas overlap once in a while and cancel each other out.

New update to these rules, almost there: 0.4 draft rules (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/jester_v0_4.pdf)

Joff - I was reading the updated rules, and I like what I'm seeing.  Things seem to be well explained and clear (and this comes at 1 am local time for me after being up most of the day, so I think things are good.)

Thanks. As usual, if there are any problems or questions that I haven't though of, post them here and I can update the rules accordingly.

How clear is the section that explains what happens when the Jester and the Minstrel's range overlaps one anothers? This is the only part that might need a rewrite!

Welcome back Joff.  You asked for comments...

Comments:
"The Jester and the minstrel requires a copy of the Catapult large expansion"
As opposed to a copy of the Catapult small or medium expansion???  I don't think the word "large" is required in that sentence.  I would rephrase it as "The Jester and Minstrel can only be played if Carcassonne: Catapult is used." or something like that.

Under Preparation "For those using the River or River II,..."
Wouldn't it be better if it's "When playing with either or both of the River and River II expansions,..." or something like that?

"If you are using The Count of Carcassonne..."
How about "If the Count of Carcassonne is being used,..." to get rid of the "you" in the sentence which is correct if it's spoken, but iffy when written.

Footnote 6 is not justified.

Instead of using Player1, 2, 3, etc. How about using Red, Green, Yellow, etc.?

"...fall within his range..." The word fall would be hard to be interpret by a person whose English is not their first language.  Also, it's a bit verbose to talk about the range and then describe the range.  I would get rid of the range and just say "...is either on the same square as the jester/minstrel or on any one of the eight adjacent squares..."

"When the Jester is capturing the attention of any followers in the area he imposes a penalty on them."  That is just bad written English.  "When the Jester captures the attention of a follower, a penalty is imposed on the follower." would be better.  Ditto for the minstrel sentence.

"Here is an example of the Jester’s attention capturing area:" might be better as "The example below shows the tiles on which a Jester will capture the attention of any followers, if the followers are on these tiles" or something similar.  Ditto for the minstrel sentence.

I can see at least 3 different words used to describe the 9 tile area: "Range" "Capturing Area" "Vicinity".  It is confusing.  Please pick one and stick to it?  Pretty please?

The penalty and bonus sections would probably need a revision based on the above.  Also note that you are describing the Knight, Thief, Monk etc. so it's best to have them first, i.e. "If a Knight is in the range/vicinity/capturing area of the Jester..."

How about a rule stating that except for the beginning, the jester and minstrel must always be 2 tiles away from each other, or is that not feasible?

Oooh, and please don't kill me for the large amount of comments...

Do you mean 2 tiles between them (i.e. Jester, tile, tile, Minstrel)?

Yeah, that's what I meant.  Sorry for not phrasing it properly especially after an entire post where I was pointing out bad grammar :(

New update: 0.5 draft rules (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/jester_v0_5.pdf)

That looks better.  Good job Joff.

Just curious though, how do the 2 new meeples interact with a few other pieces?  Can the dragon remove either of them? Does the tower capture them?  Do their bonus/penalty apply to wagons on a road or in a cloister/shrine and barns?  Does the pig get a bonus or penalty from them?

The other thing that I don't see explained is: Do you still use the rules from the Catapult when playing with this?

How do they interact with other fan made expansions?  Does this carry over into the Jousting majority of a city?  The stocks?  Woodsmen?  Fishermen?  Gold Miner?

Thanks to you :)

I have always liked the idea that the Jester should not be allowed into the capture area of the Minstrel, but I am unsure how to overcome it regarding the vanilla Carc starting tile. If you say that the Jester must be at least 2 tiles away from the Minstrel except at the beginning, this becomes confusing simply because they are allowed to start on the same tile. It would be better to place them differently right from the outset (like the River tile startup and the Count startup positions). However, one thing that my proposal does is give an opportunity to have them moved to a new starting position when they overlap each others attention capturing area (like playing a Volcano tile in P&D), but this seems clumsy and again confusing. For example, what happens when the Jester and Minstrel are both capturing the attention of, say, a Blue Knight, but only the Minstrel is capturing a Yellow Monk? In the draft rules the player who initiated the moving of the pieces by laying a fair tile can move the Jester an Minstrel to a position of his choice, which seems unfair on the Yellow player. Perhaps it would be better if they just cancelled each other out in an overlapping instance? ... or indeed force the Jester and Minstrel to be at least 2 tiles away from each other, so the problem can't occur?


As usual the rules will be updated to take into account your questions:


Absolutely not. They are neutral figures and cannot be captured.


Yes, their bonus/penalty does apply to wagons on a road, in a city or in a cloister/shrine.

Barns are effectively a type of farmer, so do not have any penalties or bonuses incurred upon them.


Well, the pig is not a follower (neither is a barn, come to that!) an so is exempt from being caught by the Jester or Minstrel. Also, a pig (once again) is a type of farmer.


Interesting. I do not yet own The Catapult, so i'm not sure how it actually plays. But, I suppose one can please themselves whether to play the catapult also together with Jester and Minstrel, as long as the Jester/Minstrel cannot be seduced, removed from play etc.


This is where I might need some help. I would say yes, the penalty/bonus is imposed on all followers that are caught in the attention capturing area. However, the penalty/bonus is only imposed at the time of completing any feature. This might need thinking about. In fact, the Jousting Tournament is especially important to clarify on if the bonus/penalty is only imposed at time of scoring.

Thanks for the clarifications.

I'd appreciate it if a footnote could be added that woodsmen and fishermen gain the bonus/penalty from the jester & minstrel, and that gold miners doesn't (they are too busy looking for gold to be distracted).  I would also appreciate a footnote that the jester & minstrel will add to/or cancel out the +1 str bonus from the An Apple A Day counter.  Thanks!

No problem, I will work on it later tonight and post in the morning (UK time).

The undercoat applied to the Jester and Minstrel pieces:

(http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/images/jester_minstrel.jpg)

Once dry, they will be sanded down and the top coats applied :)

Rules update: 0.6 draft rules (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/jester_v0_6.pdf)


and an update on the pieces:

(http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/images/dragon_piece.jpg)

I am liking the rules a lot more, but I am not sure about the "move to any other space" rule if both figures are fighting for the attention of a follower.  I somehow feel that it is too vague, or perhaps too dangerous, to allow the active player to move both of the figures to any other tile. Perhaps moving one of them would work better because if they keep ending up next to each other (by necessity, chance, or intent), then the active player can always move them to benefit himself the most. I say, let the active player choose which figure to move, but they can only move one, not both.

On a completely different note, I was thinking that the additional 24 chits that come with the game may come in handy, either for this expansion or a stand-alone. If used in this expansion, the four different type of tokens can be used as bonuses or weapons with specific followers on the table or could be used in conjunction with the jester and minstrel. Actually, I am going to make a new post to try and work out my ideas, but combining them could work too.

That might well be a good idea. I'll have a think about it :)

You could just simply say that they cancel each other out...

New update to these rules: 0.7 draft rules (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/jester_v0_7.pdf)

This is nearing completion now. Any further comments before I wrap this up?

I'm curious to know if the jester and/or the minstrel can share the same space as the dragon.  I would imagine that they could, otherwise one would have to use a different starting set-up when using the lake with the volcano tile while using P&D.  Maybe just a clarification for that is needed.

Yes they can. I will add a clarification on the next update.

I have added this to footnote 4, which refers to the River starting position. I did mention that the Jester and Minstrel could share the same tile as the Dragon in the final section entitled 'Other Rules'. I thought I had done, but only found it this morning!

Anyway, a new update: 0.8 draft rules (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/jester_v0_8.pdf)

If there are no more comments, I will finalise in the next couple of days.

I just got the Catapult a few days ago, and will give it away to the rest of my family (my two sons, my girlfriend and her two children) as a Christmas present.

I read through the rules and I thought (like many of you seem to think) that it seems like a total waste of time and effort to use the catapult at all.
BUT I do like the new tiles with the fair symbol so I will check out Joff's Jester variant and was also wondering if there are more ideas than his out there as well.
Are there any good ideas in using those catapult tokens as well?

Also, is there a possibility to get hold of those special followers or do I have to buy those other versions of Carcassone ? The city and The discovery and so on.
How many different special followers are there in the other Carcassone games (I have all expansions to Carc but NONE of those other Carc games).

And Joff, are your variant finished now, will 0.8 be the final version. Is there any point in reading through the older versions, or should I just focus on 0.8.

Cheers
.../Patrik

Focus on version 0.8. I very much doubt that it will roll back to an earlier version. It is more than likely that this will be the final released version.

The supplier I use from Germany has pieces from Carcassonne:The City and Carcassonne: The Discovery on his eBay site at present. Check out this thread: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=433.0 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=433.0)

Thanks for the quick reply, I have sent an email to germany.

I will check out your Jester variant and write down swedish rules for it so I can present that on Christmas Eve together with The Catapult.
Do you have any good ideas of using the catapult tokens as well ?

PS. I usually play yellow as well

Joff, how come the wagon is mentioned twice in the same sentence in the second paragraph in both "The Jester's penalty" (a wagon has no strength) and "The Minstrel's bonus" (a wagon has the strength of two) on page 4.

I will read through the rules again later, but after the first read-through, the bonus and penalty only occurs when scoring is done while the Jester and Minstrel are in the attention, correct ?
In other words the bonus/penalty will only take place if scoring is done before the Jester/Minstrel are moved away, by the placing of yet another fair tile.

The rules sounds nice enough though, certainly much better than the catapult rules.
Thanks
.../Patrik

I've been working on a variant here: http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=568.0 (http://www.carcassonnecentral.com/forum/index.php?topic=568.0), but it is by no means finalized or anything.

Well spotted. Corrected in the next release.


That is correct. It is the scoring of features that is affected. A fair tile 'triggers' their movement.

Incorporating wicke's comments: 0.9 draft rules (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/jester_v0_9.pdf)

Joff, I would like to send you an email regarding different meeples from the "other" Carc games.
I have tried to go through boardgamegeek to find all but I am not sure.
But your email address was hidden, so I was wondering if you can send me an email: wicke64@hotmail.com,
and then I can send you my word document with pictures of the meeples and some questions.
Is that OK ?
.../Patrik

Patrik, in the left sidebar next to someone's post, there are contact icons.  If email isn't there, you can also use this forum's PM function to send a private message (it's the one that looks like a thought balloon).

Seeing as there are no more comments or corrections, I will call this finished:

Finalised Rules: Version 1 rules (http://www.john-warren.co.uk/carcassonne/files/jester_v1.pdf)

Thanks for seeing this thru to completion. It turned out great.

No problem. It's good to see you back posting :)