Carcassonne Central

A few gold mine tiles (4 or 5?), with a gold mine in the center (similar to cloister tiles); it would look like a mountain with a gold nugget or something. Some are ffff; others might have a road on one edge; gold mine in the middle of a forest? Like cloisters, a gold mine is completed when it is completely surrounded. However, completing a gold mine does not score any points. For each turn that a gold mine is not completed, the player with a meeple on the gold mine scores 1 point. When I say each turn, I mean every player, not just the player who owns the mine. When the gold mine is completely surrounded, the supply of gold is exhausted and the meeple is removed. This encourages other players to build around the gold mine.

cool, i like it.  I would offer this variation though: If a player places a tile adjacent to the mine, the controlling player gets no points.  There needs to be even more incentive to complete the mine I think.  Have you play tested it?

Me likey. Good work.

The meeple on the mine is considered part of any adjacent features, so the player already receive no points from adjacent tile placements.

If more incentive to complete the mine is needed, the gold production rate could be increased by awarding 2 points per turn instead of just 1.

I just thought it up this afternoon, so no, I haven't play tested it. Hard enough for me to get in a regular game of Carc.

How about the player who places a tile around the mine to get 1 point and when all 8 tiles are placed around it, the person to place the last tile gets 5 points.  Do we really need to place a meeple on it?

That's completely different mechanics from what I had in mind. It makes the gold mine a very weak addition by awarding very few points to any one player. With meeple-control, one player has a constant income until the other players cut him off.

Nice idea - though I suspect that 4-5 might be too many - you could easily end up with a number going all at once - and with careful placement it is at least a 7pt score if I've read you correctly. I'll be interested to see how it plays for you.

I'm not a Photoshop expert, but I managed to whip this up so at least we can see what we're talking about.

(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1511/goldmineux6.png)

Will there be roads and castles and rivers next to the gold mine?

Yeah, definitely possible. They don't all need to be the same 'ffff' configuration.

(http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/6408/goldmineroadzm9.png)

OK, here's 'em goldmines with borders and all:

(http://www.dukenostalgia.com/junk/goldmine.jpg)

Yes, I like this. It has great potential. I quite like the idea of encouraging other players to finish the mine :) Very inventive.

could you make gold pouring down the mountain as well?

Alternate gold mine icon:

(http://www.dukenostalgia.com/junk/goldminealt.jpg)

Which one do you guys prefer?

I like the tiles with the mountains instead of the rubble.

I second that. I also prefer the 1st set.

OK, I'll have to use the rubble for gold mines next to a river though.

How about the one below?  Is this better, or is the original mountain image better?

(http://www.dukenostalgia.com/junk/goldminealt2.jpg)

That's even better :)

That looks like a winner. Nice improvement to the Mountains.

I like the last version best too :)

Wouldn't one need a way to harvest the gold? I'd think you couldn't make money from it unless you could cart the gold out, either via a river or a road.

I'm good with the third rendition of the gold mine. Looks like my next project will be to finalize the text of the rules.

1. It's a bit harsh to get a point at the beginning of every player's turn.  I would suggest that the points would be better scored at the end of a player's turn.  That way, other players have to decide if they should further their own agenda or to cut you off during their turn.
2. The way it is currently phrased, you'd get a point during your turn as well.  I'm not sure if that is fair since it will dissuade from completing your own gold mines.  I would suggest revising it to only score points during your opponent's turns.

3. I was just thinking about this - to score points continuously instead of upon completion would mean that the number of gold mines (tiles) should be limited, otherwise scoring will go through the roof.  One way around this would be to roll a die during your turn for each of your gold mines (declare for which individual gold mine the roll is for if you have than one gold mine, before you roll).  If you roll a 1, the gold mine is exhausted and you remove your meeple.  If you roll a 2, you mine the last of the gold (score 1 point) and the gold mine is exhausted and you remove your meeple.  If you roll 3 - 6, nothing happens (or something like that).  That way, gold mines might run out faster and we can have more gold mine tiles.  Also, there is no mechanism for parachuting a meeple from the City of Carc to a gold mine, so that should be OK.

4. Similar to T&B, how about each player that completes a gold mine gets a gold token, and the player with the most tokens at the end of th game gets X extra points (similar to T&B)

5. The rules will need to define how the wagon will interact with a gold mine connected to a road.

6. Magic portals and gold mines?  If suggestion 3 is used above, then the rules need to clarify that once the gold mine is exhausted, any meeple placed on the gold mine is immediately returned to hand and scores nothing.

Phew, that's a lot of comments!  Sorry for being verbose Scott.  I hope my comments help and encourages you to get this forward!

Is there any way the mine could look more mine-like?  Picture an Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom style of mine cart sitting on tracks outside a mine shaft for example.

A couple of idea for rules (in brief):

1. Place a meeple on the mine when it's played. A tile placed adjacent to the mine imparts 3 points to the owner of meeple on the shaft. The player placing the tile can then replace the meeple on the shaft with one of his own.

2. (Assuming all Gold mines have roads attached to them) Place meeple on mine. The owner of the Gold mine receives points for any subsequently completed features that can trace a direct route using the road to the Gold mine. This includes the road. Junctions/crossings in the road(s) do not terminate the connection.

They won't all have roads attached to them.  Not unless someone spends the time to draw them... do we have any volunteers?

I am ok with moving the scoring to the end of the turn, though I think it would only reduce the total accumulated points by one.


Even if you don't get a point during your own turn, you still don't have an incentive to complete your own mine. It's similar to the fairy in that you don't have an incentive to move the fairy away from you, but every other player has an incentive.


I'm not keen on adding dice to the game, but I agree that the number of mines should be limited to between 3 and 5.


Could do. Might give the owning player a little incentive to finish it off at the last minute.


The gold mine ends the road. I have no problem with the wagon travelling to or from the mine.


If the dragon eats the meeple on the mine, a magic portal can be used to put a new meeple on the mine before it is completed. Once the mine is complete, no meeples allowed and no gold generated.


I appreciate all the feedback.

The owner of the mine will be scoring enough points already I think. IMHO, if people want to steal the mine, they can do so with the usual methods (tower or dragon).

We're developing the gold mine separately from forests for now. Here's the latest rough draft:

Here's an intermediate draft (http://www.dukenostalgia.com/junk/goldmines.v02.pdf).  I'm still trying to doctor up some trade counters and then I'll need scoring examples.  The tiles and counters will be on a separate document - I have to redo a forest gold mine tile and then add in the trade counters.

Suggestion:  The player holding the robber player counter gets points from all the incomplete gold mines during his turn (the points do not go to the owners of the gold mine).  How about that?

This "mines" expansion is turning out really good.  It is a simple enough concept that I think will play well.  The only concern I have with it is that I worry that it will be worth more than cloisters, especially in >2 player games.  The minimum score for a miner in a 2 player game would be 7 points, except when the game is almost over when you would score the number of points equal to the number of rounds remaining.  Granted, in a game with >2 players, the mine might last much shorter if everyone gangs up on you.

Justification: A well played mine will have as little as one of 8 sides when played, should it be played on a peninsula.  In a two player game, it would be advantageous for the opponent to try and surround the mine as soon as possible, as a each point that he prevents his opponent from getting is as good as every point he gets for himself.  In a >2 player game, it rarely pays to play a defensive move, since it benefits everyone except the one player you are preventing from getting points.  Sure, if a spot next to the mine is as good as any other, you would play it there; but you wouldn't be as motivated to do so as with just two players.

Another concern is the case where you intentionally play a mine in a position that cannot be completed (without the "abbey" from that expansion.)  This is a real issue as this could equal one point per turn for the rest of the game.

Ideas...
1. One idea is that you never get the miner back. 
2. Another idea to punish players for incompletely surrounded mines is to penalize the player -1 for each tile around his mine which is not complete.
3. Another idea is to only give the player 1 point up till the mine is surrounded on 7 of the 8 sides.  This makes it really hard to put the mine in a position that the opponents cannot completely surround it.  it also is a punishment to the player for playing a mine as the opponent woudl never waste a tile to finish surrounding your mine because you woudl get the miner back at that time.
4. finally, you could simply have a rule that playing a mine next to an existing mine returns the miner on the old mine to the players hand.  this is the "found a better deposit in the area" rule.  This is an easy way to randomly remove your opponents mine.

I think these ideas have merit...

I like this idea!

So, will we get a tuckbox for the 12 tiles, henrysunset? ;D

a few extra ideas to keep everyone creative...
- there could be two types of mines with slightly different rules?  I could see silver and gold mines easily.
- we could introduce a "mint" tile.  it might earn the owner 4 points whenever it is the closest mint to a completed mine.  (when >1 mint's are the same distance, they each earn 4 points.)  the owner of a mint can remove his follower at any time, forgoing the ability to earn three points when the next mine is completed.

We'll see, but if it comes togeher nicely, i don't see why not.

Another idea, we should ensure that each of the 12 tiles are common pieces int he basic set + the mine icon... thus, it would be easy to print  and cut out some stickers and add them to some common pieces to make a set.

Here's my latest version (http://www.dukenostalgia.com/junk/goldmines.v03.pdf) with the images.  I hope the images are clear.  BTW, Matt, I hope you don't mind me stealing the scoring example from the CAR.

And here are the gold mine tiles (http://www.dukenostalgia.com/junk/goldmines01.pdf)!  Thanks goes to maulei for the T&B scans!  They were great!  My apologies for the less than stellar graphic in the gold trade counters :(

Scott, I've emailed you the original file if you wish to make any more changes!

Edit: Now with thumbnail goodness!

(http://www.dukenostalgia.com/junk/goldmine01tn.jpg)

Personally, I would advise against any form of scoring that occurs at the start or end of turns.  The fairy scores at the start of turns and people forget and generally find that aspect more of a nuisance. 

I do like the idea of generating gold pieces and them scoring similar to the way trade goods work.  It's generally perceived that the score from trade goods gets weaker the more expansions you use. Just an idea, but has anyone considered linking gold pieces to trade goods in some fashion, perhaps with some interaction to boost the overall scoring of trade goods?

I'm not keen on this.


I like this very much. Just need to change one word in the rules. (scores -> loses) :) That will give the owning player some incentive to complete his gold mines towards the end of the game.


Not everybody has all the tiles memorized, so this might be difficult for some in practice.


Interesting idea. I'm not sure how I feel about it. Maybe some play testing is needed.


How would the rules change for a silver mine, and would it be worth it? I'm concerned about making this expansion more complicated than it already is.


I would be more inclined towards calling it a smelter, and I'm sort of inclined towards only allowing it to score points if it is immediately within a gold mine's completion area.


Perhaps this will help people get used to the idea then. ;) 


I don't think there are any provisions for this in the T&B rules, but it's probably a common house rule that trade goods can be traded at the end of the game. For example:

Player 1: 2 cloth, 1 wheat
Player 2: 2 cloth, 2 wheat
Player 3: 2 wheat, 1 cloth

Player 1 trades his 1 wheat to Player 3 for 1 cloth, allowing both of them to break their ties with Player 2 and score 10 points each while Player 2 scores no points (unless he has other trade goods).

Scott, I'll leave it up to you to update the rules.  Lemme know if you need any more images :)

Here is v0.4:
http://www.mediafire.com/?mv0nvjmymvm (http://www.mediafire.com/?mv0nvjmymvm)

Looks good.  Thanks for the font fix, Scott!

I wasn't really meaning in this sense. What I was trying to get across as an idea, was that the collection of the gold pieces could in some way have a knock-on effect to the scoring from trade goods. In a large game of Carcassonne the 10 points for each trade good is somewhat superfluous in the grander scheme of things when scoring is well over 300 points.  The gold mine variant might be an opportunity to reinstate some worth to collecting trade goods... your mileage may vary of course.

Question. The River tiles include a piece that has a gold mine and a road. Does this mean I can place a follower on a gold mine and also on the road? If not there is a confusing statement (highlighted in red in quote). If this is correct, it seems unfair.

I'm pretty sure he didn't mean to imply more than one meeple per tile. I found a few other problems too. Here's an updated version which should make things more clear.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ybmgjw4mtu3 (http://www.mediafire.com/?ybmgjw4mtu3)

Thanks Scott.  I just realised that the fork in the river can only be used together with both Rivers expansions, or with a River expansion (either) and GQ11 expansion.  Otherwise, the river will never be complete.  Do we need to add that into the rules as well?  I knew I should have included a gold mine on a lake...

Fixed:
http://www.mediafire.com/?yqdmzmldgz0 (http://www.mediafire.com/?yqdmzmldgz0)

Once we're sure everything is done, I'll make a version 1.0 that includes the tile images in the same PDF file for easier downloading. Then Gantry can post it in the Downloads section.

minor correction, but my alias is HenrySunset :-)

although I supose i prefer the way it looks in lowercase... "henrysunset".

In either case, your acknowledgement of my small contribution is a appreciated!!!

My apologies henry :)

Hmm... needs to mention that:

The lake tile from the River is not set aside but is also shuffled together with the rest of the tiles.  If this lake tile is drawn before the river branch, draw and play another tile and shuffle the lake tile back with the other tiles.

Or something like that.

FAQ:

Is his name Gantry Rose then ???

Probably not, but that's what Matt wrote in the CAR.

Ok, hopefully this is the last revision: ???
http://www.mediafire.com/?jwnwnjjjzaj (http://www.mediafire.com/?jwnwnjjjzaj)

Did he not write Gantry Rogue ??? :)

Ooops, my bad, should be Gantry Rogue... and thanks for including the FAQ.  I wonder if there are any more questions that might need some clarification...

I hope not. I'd like to publish v1.0, probably on Saturday, and only have to worry about one expansion at a time. :)

I don't want to wait until Saturday, so here is v1.0 a day early:
http://www.mediafire.com/?jtewg2mnmqy (http://www.mediafire.com/?jtewg2mnmqy)

Gantry, can you add this to the public Downloads page and Variant Registry? Thanks in advance!

whow, thanks
this is great
I love playing new expansions :-)
I only ran out of blanc tiles !!

Just to let you know, Gantry's name is still wrong ;)

Woops. :-[ Fixed:
http://www.mediafire.com/?lttmuy45mjx (http://www.mediafire.com/?lttmuy45mjx)

Joff wanted to make a small tweak to the opening narrative:
http://www.mediafire.com/?hxy0mj1njej (http://www.mediafire.com/?hxy0mj1njej)

You can blame him if you already printed it out.

Hello all,

I have been playing the Gold Mines expansion with a tine variation.

Variant: The player ho places a tile adjacent to the gold mine receive a golden token (not only the player ho places the tile that completes the feature receive the token). As the regular rule the player ho have more golden tokens win 10 points.

This way a player can choose if he wants use his play to win golden token for sure, exactly like the trate good from T&B, that with a single tile you has the choice to win the trade good token or not.

Is a very good incentive to the player to complete the feature.


It is a very good expansion and I think RGG shoud print and pay the creator.


tkz.

I love the idea of mines

Still think the points are way too many.

It is somewhat akin to a cloister (9 points)

In a six player game a player would score 6 points a round correct?

Even if every day focused on finishing the mine, it is likely to take 16-20 tile pulls, given those that won't fit the mine area.

So a mine is double a cloister for sure.

Just my thoughts as a newcomer reading over the DIY additions.

I've played this expansion a couples of times. We played where you only get 1pt per round, or at the beginning of your turn if it's not completed. I like the fact that you can get more out it than from a cloister. I think the last game I played was with 2 players, and even though I got more Gold Mines than the other player, she still won.